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How about the next 2 verses?
65 Pilate said to them, "You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as yo know how." 66 So, they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.
Just finishing the story.
A secure tomb with a guard.
Thank you for responding.
Since you have suggested a further reading of the texts for additional pertinent facts, let's continue on with that pursuit.
Matt. 27:
[57] When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
[58] He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
John 19:
[38] And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
So who now has possession of the body of Jesus? His disciples.
Where do they take the body of Jesus? To Joseph's newly made tomb. Why?
John 19:
[41] Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
And what happens at the tomb?
John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
The body is coated in one hundred pounds of an aromatic mixture of myrrh and aloe gum resin. A procedure that would have sealed out the air and retarded the natural process of decay for a few days.
Then what happened?
Matt. 27:
[60] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
So what do the chief priests and Pharisees find the next day when they go to the tomb? The entrance is covered with a great stone. What do the chief priests and Pharisees do? They put seals on the stone, set a guard, and departed.
What is discovered the next day? The tomb is empty. Why?
Because the body was ALREADY GONE! Just what the chief priests and Pharisees were afraid of.
Who are the last ones to be in physical possession of the body of Jesus? His disciples! Who begins to spread the rumor that Jesus has risen from the dead? His disciples!
You're right! She may very well end up in one of the several levels of Buddhist hell!
There are levels in Buddhist hell? I think the Christian hell has a one-size fits all. You know where they group the "good works, but not the good thoughts" folks with murderers. We certainly have choices.
There are levels in Buddhist hell? I think the Christian hell has a one-size fits all. You know where they group the "good works, but not the good thoughts" folks with murderers. We certainly have choices.
I never thought of it that way before.
But it is quite absurd!
Just a few comments - yes, we have drifted off the topic of comparing Atheism and Christianity to trying to prove a god through the first-and -last resort apologetic; cosmic origins. Chich is actually irrelevant as that (even if validated) oly leads to Which god? Which of course leads to Bible veracity.
Which in itself leads to the Resurrection claim. If that isn't true, Christianity fails even if every other word of the Bible is factual. Which may be why the matter of the disciples stealing the body is a valid one. The Casual Visitor raised the matter of the Tomb Guard. I'd argue that nobody other than Matthew mentions this really important matter, and his account is fantastical and contradictory. In the other gospels the women arrive to find the tomb empty and the angel that explains where Jesus has gone is absent in John (until two show up later for no good reason).
Since it is less likely that John deleted the tale of the angel explaining that Jesus has risen than (Just as mark has no resurrection appearance at all) there was an angel added in the origonal of the synoptic gospel, which all three copied.
As ToN noted, Matthew's tomb guard wasn't posted until the next day, so if the disciples were going to get Jesus out they had all night to do it. Matthew pretty much tells us why he invented the story - because the Jews in his day claimed that the disciples stole the body. The disciples here are the disciples who put Jesus there. The excuse that the disciples were fearful and hiding doesn't apply to Arimathea and Nicodemus. In fact IF one takes the story as a generally true account, the whole crucifixion account only makes sense if it was a repeat of the Lazarus resurrection -stunt (1) intended to get Jesus down off the cross alive.
The counter to this must be "But the disciples would not die for a lie!" But who says that they did? Only early church martyrdom stories. And the dubious claim of Luke in Acts that Herod Agrippa had John (son of Zebedee) killed.
The conclusion is that, if the accounts are given credence, then a plot to rescue Jesus alive is what would stand up in court, not a resurection from the dead. And if it isn't a credible account, it doesn't matter.
(1) again, IF you take John's account as reliable, then the whole Lazarus - thing screams of a faked resurrection miracle. I was once pretty convinced of this, but now i rather suspect that the accounts are Not reliable.
Thank you very much. I was initially quite surprised and impressed by the quoting of Hawking in support of a Prime Mover apologetic, but it of course began to look like mined quotes that could be easily lifted from apologetics websites. Thanks for the link putting the quotes into context.
Quote-mining by Christians?? I'm shocked!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
This statement is a bit bizarre to me. You are essentially saying that a God who created our universe (in an instant, from nothing)...
I thought you believed that nothing can come from nothing.
I'm going to call you "Unhinged Harry." It has a nice ring to it. Either that, or "Bovine Excrement Harry."
Because ad hominem is all you have. But why call me Bovine Excrement Harry when you are providing all the BS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Harry: "Your problem is if it is unlikely for one universe to just have the 6 parameters correct, then it is equally as unlikely that a god that simply exists just happens to know these 6 parameters."
This statement is a bit bizarre to me. You are essentially saying that a God who created our universe (in an instant, from nothing) would not likely know what precise parameters were needed in order to allow the formation of planets and life, even though that was the whole purpose for making the universe. What you're doing here is confining God to your own limited box, assuming limitations about what a creator God is capable of. That's very similar to assumption that a God who created the whole universe would be unable to raise Jesus from the dead. It's is the same tactic... placing your own limits on what a creator God is capable of in order to suit your argument. You want to "refute" the supernatural by limiting answers to only "natural" explanations. Sloppy logic.
Please, point me to where you made a compelling case for the multiverse theory.
You quoted me doing just that. Let me repeat myself.
I presume you are referring to the six precise parameters our universe needs to be stable. If you want to argue improbable, why use one example when you can have improbable multiplied by 6?
Your problem is if it is unlikely for one universe to just have the 6 parameters correct, then it is equally as unlikely that a god that simply exists just happens to know these 6 parameters.
So if chance and a god are equally unlikely, then there must be a more plausible alternative. Any of the multiverse theories are more plausible as they increase the probability landscape. The larger the number of universes, the more likely one will be stable.
Another home goal for you, you have just argued your god out of existence.
Let me explain probability AGAIN.
In 5 card poker, the chance of dealing A royal flush is 1:649,740. Unlikely.
If you dealt 1 million times, the chance is you would get 1, possibly 2 royal flushes.
The same is true if 1 million people dealt a hand just once, the chance is someone, possibly 2 people would get A royal flush.
So if 1 million people dealt 1 million hands, the chance that someone had A royal flush is very probable indeed. The actual odds are 1539077:1 for a royal flush. That is, we would expect about 1539077 royal flushes.
So given many chances over a long time, even an improbable random goal becomes more probable. Therefore the larger the number of universes, the more likely at least one would eventually be stable.
This is the problem you need to address. If you can not, you have lost part one of the debate. If you evade, you have lost part one of the debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
For Instance, what "caused" the first universe to be created?
Since you have suggested a further reading of the texts for additional pertinent facts, let's continue on with that pursuit.
Matt. 27:
[57] When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
[58] He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
John 19:
[38] And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
So who now has possession of the body of Jesus? His disciples.
Where do they take the body of Jesus? To Joseph's newly made tomb. Why?
John 19:
[41] Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
And what happens at the tomb?
John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
The body is coated in one hundred pounds of an aromatic mixture of myrrh and aloe gum resin. A procedure that would have sealed out the air and retarded the natural process of decay for a few days.
Then what happened?
Matt. 27:
[60] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
So what do the chief priests and Pharisees find the next day when they go to the tomb? The entrance is covered with a great stone. What do the chief priests and Pharisees do? They put seals on the stone, set a guard, and departed.
What is discovered the next day? The tomb is empty. Why?
Because the body was ALREADY GONE! Just what the chief priests and Pharisees were afraid of.
Who are the last ones to be in physical possession of the body of Jesus? His disciples! Who begins to spread the rumor that Jesus has risen from the dead? His disciples!
That is one possibility from several, all more probable than a supernatural resurrection.
As ToN noted, Matthew's tomb guard wasn't posted until the next day, so if the disciples were going to get Jesus out they had all night to do it.
It did not need to be the disciples. Criminals were put in a common area for later burial, or their bodies were buried at night in secret. So someone responsible for this could have moved the body without the followers of Jesus knowing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
The counter to this must be "But the disciples would not die for a lie!" But who says that they did? Only early church martyrdom stories.
And none of the early Christian sources say any of the disciples died for their belief in Jesus.
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Let me repeat myself.
