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Old Today, 07:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I don't need to; I only need to know that the theist claim is that 'nobody knows anything 100%' (except through Faith). This -aside from faith - is a sound claim, though of course not 100% reliable. e.g One of the many faith claims could be 100% true.

All this is a sliding scale of validation through evidence and reason. And this is why Faith -claims fail at the outset as they are based on Faith, not reason.
is love based on reason? no
it is a power validated purely on the presence of a feeling.

those who deny God have not experienced the love of the Creator.

it's like someone who has never been in love, saying that love does not exist.
how do you explain to someone what it feels like to be in love, and to feel love. really.
can you do it?

and the different kinds of love. you love a good meal. a new car. different in degree than how you love your wife or boyfriend or nephew. and the feeling of being loved. that is certainly not reasonable. listen to people try and describe how their pet loves them. and perhaps the power of love for a child. brings a parent to tears just thinking about the love for their child, no matter what age. is that reasonable? try explaining that.

now take that most immense love, the love for a child, which many say is the strongest love they feel in their life. and try to picture that a thousand fold. and you feeling the power of that. that's a feeble faint limited by words attempt to describe how it feels to be loved by the Creator. which lives within every one of us. and is available to every human.

when someone feels that, nothing is the same.

now try explaining how it feels to be in love to someone who has never been in love, and has never felt loved, and says to you "prove you are really in love" and "i don't believe you" and "anybody can say anything why should i believe you if i can not experience it myself" and "you are making it up" or "it's something else but not love" or "it's chemicals in the brain not love" or "you are just saying that because you don't understand science" or "if you are in love then why are children dying of cancer and starving somewhere" "if you are really in love then why have i never been in love". respond to those comments, and see how "reasonable" you sound.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; Today at 07:16 AM..
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Old Today, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
23,895 posts, read 10,838,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
is love based on reason? no
it is a power validated purely on the presence of a feeling.

those who deny God have not experienced the love of the Creator.

it's like someone who has never been in love, saying that love does not exist.
how do you explain to someone what it feels like to be in love, and to feel love. really.
can you do it?

and the different kinds of love. you love a good meal. a new car. different in degree than how you love your wife or boyfriend or nephew. and the feeling of being loved. that is certainly not reasonable. listen to people try and describe how their pet loves them. and perhaps the power of love for a child. brings a parent to tears just thinking about the love for their child, no matter what age. is that reasonable? try explaining that.

now take that most immense love, the love for a child, which many say is the strongest love they feel in their life. and try to picture that a thousand fold. and you feeling the power of that. that's a feeble faint limited by words attempt to describe how it feels to be loved by the Creator. which lives within every one of us. and is available to every human.

when someone feels that, nothing is the same.

now try explaining how it feels to be in love to someone who has never been in love, and has never felt loved, and says to you "prove you are really in love" and "i don't believe you" and "anybody can say anything why should i believe you if i can not experience it myself" and "you are making it up" or "it's something else but not love" or "it's chemicals in the brain not love" or "you are just saying that because you don't understand science" or "if you are in love then why are children dying of cancer and starving somewhere" "if you are really in love then why have i never been in love". respond to those comments, and see how "reasonable" you sound.
I don't agree with your original (now bolded) premise. The individuals I have loved...I can tell you exactly what characteristics they had that led me to love them. I can give you specific examples of things they did that made me love them. What you seem to be talking about is infatuation.
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Old Today, 07:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
TEN TRUTHS

ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.

TWO: Human beings cannot know all that exists in the universe. The universe is forever in flux, full of mystery that will forever be marveled and explored by Man as long as he survives.

THREE: The first reality for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the world; from Astrology to Zoraoastianism. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy, the Book of Mormon and others. These are the books about men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Moses and Joseph Smith.

FOUR: The second reality, all that exists in the universe, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). Universal truth is all we can accept as reality, the truth, with the most certainty and least conflict. What we can all most reasonably accept as true for all concerned.

FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond universal truth as determined and defined by science. Such notions, religions, often involve spirituality or a belief in an energy, power or force. A belief in a deity, god or gods, the supernatural. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotions and feelings rather than facts, reason and logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observation or scientific verification.

SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical guides Man to further scientific discovery. However, when conjecture about the supernatural leads to faith and religious inculcation rather facts, reason and logic, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people still today cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is continuously promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war still raging to this day; the Crusades, Protestants v Catholics, Jews v Muslims, Shiites v Sunnis.

SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit spiritual conjecture is to foster a greater respect for the truth as currently defined or understood by science. Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth for all human beings. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the significant amount of conflict between differing faiths. As Man learns to universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared and the prospect of peace improved.

EIGHT: Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans. Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress. Science encourages inquiry thus expanding Man's awareness and enlightenment. Faith typically deems any question about God's existence as evil in nature, not to be tolerated. Science has no such restrictions or judgement. Accordingly, there is no manner in which to reconcile these two competing approaches toward revealing Man's universal truth.

NINE: Faith can and does promote goodwill between some people. Creation of beautiful places of worship, help for those in need, community and comfort through difficult times. Even a code of conduct necessary for some to be moral. Yes of course, but with the good there is no need for the bad or falsehoods. Truth is best realized and peace most successfully promoted as more people patiently accept and embrace Man's common reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance very slowly growing from one century to the next is the maturing of Man. His best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the universe, proven or yet to be proven.

TEN: People of faith will deny if not condemn these truths for many reasons; from fear of god to fear of no god. Fear of death to fear of Hell. Typically beginning with the significant influence of inculcation at a young impressionable age, the subsequent effects of confirmation bias over time, development of ego and bigotry all prevent objective reason and logic to prevail for Man as quickly as it should. Instead the condemnation persists even to this day much like when Galileo was even imprisoned for attempting to overcome these same obstacles centuries ago. Much like the Jesuits denounced Elvis Presley. Much like Harry Potter books are banned in Catholic schools today. The ignorance and intolerance persists. Much like the ongoing effort to overcome the ills of racism, sexism, xenophobia and homophobia that also still persist today, the effort to overcome these backward ways very slowly and painfully is the progress of Man that each generation represents better than the last.
question for LM or anyone

what is the truth of love?
and where is that on this list?
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Old Today, 07:33 AM
 
13,357 posts, read 13,838,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't agree with your original (now bolded) premise. The individuals I have loved...I can tell you exactly what characteristics they had that led me to love them. I can give you specific examples of things they did that made me love them. What you seem to be talking about is infatuation.
and other people could do the very same things and have the very same characteristics and you would not fall in love with them.
so parents are "infatuated" with their children?
and to say that someone has to "do" certain things or "have certain characteristics" to be loved or earn love is not what love is at all. love has nothing to do with what a person does or how they act. it is not conditional. it does not change. it is always there a constant.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; Today at 08:56 AM..
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Old Today, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
question for LM or anyone

what is the truth of love?
and where is that on this list?
Love is an emotion.

Trying to place truth in love is cheapens it. Love, hate, fun, beauty are not anything I would judge to have a truth. How can you even judge if my love for my wife is true or not. Or a dog's love for its people? How is the rugged beauty of the badlands the truth?

Love is truth or truth is love is what religious people say to try to convince the non religious that they are wrong or missing out on the truth which of course the truth has to be the it particular religion or favour of that religion. .
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Old Today, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
23,895 posts, read 10,838,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
and other people could do the very same things and have the very same characteristics and you would not fall in love with them.
so parents are "infatuated" with their children?
and to say that someone has to "do" certain things or "have certain characteristics" to be loved or earn love is not what love is at all. love has nothing to do with what a person does or how they act. it is not conditional. it does not change. it is always there a constant.
Are parents infatuated with their children? Sometimes.

And your description of love is why nearly 50% of all marriages end in divorce, why many children and parents come to near or total estrangement, sometimes for years.
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Old Today, 10:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Fairly good, except for Eight and Ten, which are bogus.

No person's "truth" will ever fully match another's. That's #11, and the fine print disclaimer for the entire set

#12 is "No person's accounting or description of any 'truth' makes it reality"

#13 is "It's better to know and sense a truth, than rely on words and sentences for its description"
Do we all not consider a great many truths to be universal in nature? Fully matching others for all practical purposes?

We need air to breath. We all have blood pumping through our veins. The Earth revolves around the Sun...

I know there are Flat Earthers out there if that's what you're getting at, but I'm referring to the rational, not irrational. Put another way, there are of course exceptions to every rule, but they don't make the rule.
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Old Today, 10:45 AM
 
13,440 posts, read 3,417,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRoadkill View Post
Great post, now let's wait for all the zealots, haters and trolls.
Thank you, and no doubt I share the same concern, because there are lots of people in this forum who know very well how to shut a thread down, as Truth Ten also explains.
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Old Today, 10:50 AM
 
13,440 posts, read 3,417,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
FWIW, I like them, too. I had seen them referenced in other threads (back when they were merely nine in number), but had never stopped to read in their entirety. In any event, I don't see much with which to take exception, great or otherwise.

Good luck.......
I had every expectation to meet the same level of criticism and complaint that I experienced before with these truths when I started this thread "due to popular demand." To my great surprise, I'm first finding positive and encouraging comments like yours. Perhaps not all is lost...

Interesting to note you caught a glimpse of these truths before and thought to give them a second look. Glad you did, and that you and others agree.

Why do I hear John Lennon singing "Imagine" all of a sudden?
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Old Today, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Florida
20,107 posts, read 20,216,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Do we all not consider a great many truths to be universal in nature? Fully matching others for all practical purposes?

We need air to breath. We all have blood pumping through our veins. The Earth revolves around the Sun...

I know there are Flat Earthers out there if that's what you're getting at, but I'm referring to the rational, not irrational. Put another way, there are of course exceptions to every rule, but they don't make the rule.
All I've asked for more than once are some examples, or even one, of a universal truth that has to do with religion or spirituality.
So far......none.
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