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Old 05-09-2008, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
Mountains are being built up as I type this. The Rockies, Himalayas are still being uplifted faster than they are being eroded. The Tibetan Plateau and himilayas are slowing getting higher as India moves into Asia.
Right. When I said "mountains" I used it as a generic term for anything that is on or part of the earth that looks like it has been around for a long, long time.

Let me explain my point very simply one more time, KCfromNC, before I bow out of this thread.

When God created the earth, it was complete. It was a sphere like we have today, with land and water. When He created the sun, it was complete. Complete trees stood on the earth, complete animals walked around. To do a complete job has nothing to do with deception!

Your argument is like taking a brand-new car from the factory and trying to figure out how long it took a native in an African jungle to build it with hand tools, and then calling the factory deceptive.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Right. When I said "mountains" I used it as a generic term for anything that is on or part of the earth that looks like it has been around for a long, long time.

Let me explain my point very simply one more time, KCfromNC, before I bow out of this thread.

When God created the earth, it was complete. It was a sphere like we have today, with land and water. When He created the sun, it was complete. Complete trees stood on the earth, complete animals walked around. To do a complete job has nothing to do with deception!

Your argument is like taking a brand-new car from the factory and trying to figure out how long it took a native in an African jungle to build it with hand tools, and then calling the factory deceptive.
Were those created trees created fully grown with tree rings, you know, showing a series of growing seasons that go back years. The deception is not that things were created "complete" but that these examples were created with the appearance of History. A history of events that never actually took place. Flood Geologist claim that there were no mountains until the Flood, but the geologic record falsifies that. YOu say that you just interpret things differently. If I post a feature in the geologic record with pictures, can you interpret the history? You say you just interpret it differently. What I have found is that no interpretation is actually presented.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
7,762 posts, read 6,539,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post

Your argument is like taking a brand-new car from the factory and trying to figure out how long it took a native in an African jungle to build it with hand tools, and then calling the factory deceptive.
No, you understood it correctly before. Here was a brand new car but is was made with the appearance of age, eventhough it was still brand new. It was complete with oxidized paint, even dented quarter panels. Eventhough it was never in a wreck. It had 100,000 miles on the odometer, eventhough it just rolled off the assembly line. That is the appearance of history, a history of events that never actually occurred. I was not saying anything about the time it took to put it together.

Last edited by PanTerra; 05-09-2008 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
Were those created trees created fully grown with tree rings, you know, showing a series of growing seasons that go back years. The deception is not that things were created "complete" but that these examples were created with the appearance of History.
I see your point... and of course I don't know, but I believe that trees could have been created with tree rings, similarly animals were created full-grown (picture lion with full mane, etc), and if you would have walked along a beach it probably would have looked like the waves had been crashing on the shore for many years. Natural laws were set in place, and these plants and animals were the fore-runners of the plants and animals to come, so they would have had the same natural properties. Basically, yes, I believe one minute after Creation the world looked like it had been around for many years. Once again, this was necessary to make it complete. It was ready for mankind, which was God's purpose in creating it.

Last edited by cg81; 05-09-2008 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
I see your point... and of course I don't know, but I believe that trees could have been created with tree rings, similarly animals were created full-grown (picture lion with full mane, etc), and if you would have walked along a beach it probably would have looked like the waves had been crashing on the shore for many years. Natural laws were set in place, and these plants and animals were the fore-runners of the plants and animals to come, so they would have had the same natural properties. Basically, yes, I believe one minute after Creation the world looked like it had been around for many years. Once again, this was necessary to make it complete.
They could have the capacity to form rings, but there is no functional property of rings, they are only artifacts of each growing season, and would not be expected if trees were created mature, since they have not experienced growing seasons. It's not even impied in scripture. Scripture just says Let the Earth bring forth ..., and trees growing, not that they were directly created by God fully formed. That's eisegesis. I find that deception untenable. A fake history. Why would God create a tree with rings. Was Adam created with a navel? Following that logic, Adam had to have a navel, even scars from historical injuries that never happened. This is Omphalism.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
Why would God create a tree with rings.
Why not? "Deception" in this case is only in the eye of the beholder.. it depends on your "perception".

Basically, it depends on whether a person believes in God or not, and following that, whether they believe the Biblical account of creation is true. Those that don't will say that God was being "deceptive"... for those that do believe in the God of creation, it's not really an issue.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that my belief in God comes first... and after that comes my interpretion of evidence of the age of the universe. No "facts" need to be ignored... but since to me God is more real than the monitor in front of my face, in that light is my interpretation.

EDIT: That is why my answer to the OP regarding "Creation Scientist evidence" was, it won't happen. Belief in Creation must take an act of faith.. I do not believe that this supernatural event is able to be proven by natural laws. However, natural laws were set in place at Creation, and scientists can learn about the earth based on these unfailing laws.

Last edited by cg81; 05-09-2008 at 10:58 AM.. Reason: last para
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Why not? "Deception" in this case is only in the eye of the beholder.. it depends on your "perception".

My perception is that God is not deceptive and that objective reality is real. That the history in creation is real actually happened, not an illusion, and much more vast than the YEC viewpoint will allow. And that tree rings indicate growing seasons. Therefore, it is the YEC interpretation that is false.

Last edited by PanTerra; 05-09-2008 at 11:40 AM..
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:47 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 4,030,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanTerra View Post
My perception is that God is not deceptive and that objective reality is real. That the history in creation is real actually happened, not an illusion, and much more vast than the YEC viewpoint will allow. And that tree rings indicate growing seasons. Therefore, it is the YEC interpretation that is false.
I don't believe in a deceptive God, but I do believe this about Him..
Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
No one can know His power and ability.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
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I am talking about character, not power and ability.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Sheffield, England
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Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I've asked this question a number of times and I've never received a response from anyone so I'm going to start a thread on it. Scientists who have made progress in any field of study often want to present their work to the scientific community by writing a paper and submitting it to a scientific journal. Scientific journals contain papers that have been peer reviewed in order to establish their credibility and to keep a high standard in scientific publications. If there are scientists who have discovered solid evidence that can be demonstrated following the scientific method that creationism has a foundation based on fact why don't they present this evidence to the scientific community in the same manner that other scientists do? There are countless scientific journals on any topic you can think of in which professional scientists present their work following a rigorous set of established guidelines. I would think that if any scientist could really lay out all of the evidence they've discovered that proves the earth is only a few thousand years old and that mankind has descended from Adam and Eve that they'd be chomping at the bit to get it published because they'd be in Nobel Prize country. Contrary to what creationists are always saying about science it's clear that scientists thrive on controversy and overthrowing a previously accepted idea because a new one can be shown to be more plausible is what scientists do. That's how progress is made. So why hasn't anyone presented the scientific evidence for creationism and published it in a scientific journal?
The reason is because they're not scientists at all; they're philosophers. Science is based on evidence, controlled testing and, ultimately, proof. Creation 'scientists'' views are based on speculation and faith in a book which hasn't even been proven to be true. Heck, the religion they follow is divided up into loads of groups based on varying interpretations of said scriptures so you can hardly take anything concrete from them. Saying "the world is complex so it must have been designed" isn't scientific. All that is is a hypothesis. Scientifically proving something requires a lot more than simply saying "I believe......".
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