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Yes, I know the story. It is nonsensical in the extreme. It it is adam's fault, it is really god's fault. When the bridge fails and fools, the all-in-one engineer, architect, materials developer/provider and constructor bears the blame, NOT the bridge.
God make a flawed man and then punished him for bearing the flaws he instilled in him? Give me a beak!!
Of course if one goes back to the original Garden of Eden story, the one that the biblical story was derived from, then it makes sense and the 'sinning by disobeying God' thing disappears as does the flawed 'creation'. Originally man was made in the image of the gods (plural) who no-one claimed to be perfect.
Of course if one goes back to the original Garden of Eden story, the one that the biblical story was derived from, then it makes sense and the 'sinning by disobeying God' thing disappears as does the flawed 'creation'. Originally man was made in the image of the gods (plural) who no-one claimed to be perfect.
I don't believe the Garden of Eden account is particularly relevant. If God desired creatures capable of genuine communion with him, of making genuine moral decisions and judgments, and of freely turning to him, it was necessary for those creatures to have free will. Free will introduces into the creation the potential for all variety of poor decisions, immorality and evil. What we see around us is 99% the product of the exercise and misuse of human free will. If the Garden of Eden account is relevant, it is mostly to underscore that a propensity to misuse our free will is the human condition.
Yes, there may be some seemingly inexplicable evil or unfairness that is difficult to trace to the exercise of human free will, but we have no way of knowing how this may appear to an eternal transcendent God or fit into his greater plan. No serious philosopher still regards the Problem of Evil as a defeater for belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.
Almost all objections such as the OP makes boil down to something like "Why doesn't God protect us from ourselves?" or "Why didn't God make a universe where nothing can go wrong?" or even "This isn't the sort of universe I would've made if I'd been God." It's very similar to the toddler who regards his wise and loving parent as a Big Meanie.
An individual either does or doesn't believe in God. Those who are looking for reasons not to believe will find them. Those who do believe trust that the puzzling or troubling questions will have answers consistent with the goodness and wisdom of the God in whom they trust.
At the risk of sounding like a Calvinist, long experience just about convinces me that faith is a gift. Some people simply have an innate ability to believe while others don't - and it has little or nothing to do with intelligence, education, culture or any other easily identifiable factor.
I don't believe the Garden of Eden account is particularly relevant. If God desired creatures capable of genuine communion with him, of making genuine moral decisions and judgments, and of freely turning to him, it was necessary for those creatures to have free will. Free will introduces into the creation the potential for all variety of poor decisions, immorality and evil. What we see around us is 99% the product of the exercise and misuse of human free will. If the Garden of Eden account is relevant, it is mostly to underscore that a propensity to misuse our free will is the human condition.
Yes, there may be some seemingly inexplicable evil or unfairness that is difficult to trace to the exercise of human free will, but we have no way of knowing how this may appear to an eternal transcendent God or fit into his greater plan. No serious philosopher still regards the Problem of Evil as a defeater for belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.
Almost all objections such as the OP makes boil down to something like "Why doesn't God protect us from ourselves?" or "Why didn't God make a universe where nothing can go wrong?" or even "This isn't the sort of universe I would've made if I'd been God." It's very similar to the toddler who regards his wise and loving parent as a Big Meanie.
An individual either does or doesn't believe in God. Those who are looking for reasons not to believe will find them. Those who do believe trust that the puzzling or troubling questions will have answers consistent with the goodness and wisdom of the God in whom they trust.
At the risk of sounding like a Calvinist, long experience just about convinces me that faith is a gift. Some people simply have an innate ability to believe while others don't - and it has little or nothing to do with intelligence, education, culture or any other easily identifiable factor.
As I've said, there is much we agree about, Irkle, and you do have a fine mind. I just remain puzzled by your willingness to accept the ancient ignorance of our ancestors about the nature of God over the revelations and demonstration of God's True Nature by Jesus. A God who IS agape love as Jesus said can never be unfair, period. Our human perspective is NOT the standard of fairness.
I don't believe the Garden of Eden account is particularly relevant. If God desired creatures capable of genuine communion with him, of making genuine moral decisions and judgments, and of freely turning to him, it was necessary for those creatures to have free will. Free will introduces into the creation the potential for all variety of poor decisions, immorality and evil. What we see around us is 99% the product of the exercise and misuse of human free will. If the Garden of Eden account is relevant, it is mostly to underscore that a propensity to misuse our free will is the human condition.
Only if you ignore the logical conclusion that if you have free will, your god is not all knowing. And if your god is all knowing, you do not have free will.
I would again explain the logic, but I find most Christians I have explained this to either can not understand it, or do not want to.
But that is the problem when you define what you want your god to be instead of trying to find out about your god. Perhaps because trying to understand might lead you to conclusions you do not like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
Yes, there may be some seemingly inexplicable evil or unfairness that is difficult to trace to the exercise of human free will, but we have no way of knowing how this may appear to an eternal transcendent God or fit into his greater plan. No serious philosopher still regards the Problem of Evil as a defeater for belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.
Your usual assertion. Regardless of which problem of evil you are referring to (logical or philosophical), the problem of evil is still relevant, especially as the logical argument refutes the 3 omni attributes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
Almost all objections such as the OP makes boil down to something like "Why doesn't God protect us from ourselves?" or "Why didn't God make a universe where nothing can go wrong?" or even "This isn't the sort of universe I would've made if I'd been God." It's very similar to the toddler who regards his wise and loving parent as a Big Meanie.
Your usual ad hominem. If life was fair, there would be no children born with disease, and the free will argument does not get you out of this, as you can not choose how you are born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
An individual either does or doesn't believe in God. Those who are looking for reasons not to believe will find them.
More ad hominem. It is not that we are looking for reasons not to believe, it is that we see no evidence for any gods, just as you do not see evidence for every other god.
Or are you looking for reasons not to believe in Mbombo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
Those who do believe trust that the puzzling or troubling questions will have answers consistent with the goodness and wisdom of the God in whom they trust.
At least you have admitted your argument is based on trust (not evidence), and that the questions are puzzling and troubling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
At the risk of sounding like a Calvinist, long experience just about convinces me that faith is a gift. Some people simply have an innate ability to believe while others don't - and it has little or nothing to do with intelligence, education, culture or any other easily identifiable factor.
The identifiable factor you are ignorant of is called cognitive bias.
As usual your post is just another set of assertions and fallacies. It would be interesting if for once you logically addressed the actual arguments.
As I've said, there is much we agree about, Irkle, and you do have a fine mind. I just remain puzzled by your willingness to accept the ancient ignorance of our ancestors about the nature of God over the revelations and demonstration of God's True Nature by Jesus. A God who IS agape love as Jesus said can never be unfair, period. Our human perspective is NOT the standard of fairness.
God doesn't but we do. In my view, each sentient species has to develop their consciousness to be resonant with God's consciousness (agape love). We were failing even to try. Jesus elevated His human consciousness into perfect resonance (Identity) with God's thereby taking the rest of us with Him.
God doesn't but we do. In my view, each sentient species has to develop their consciousness to be resonant with God's consciousness (agape love). We were failing even to try. Jesus elevated His human consciousness into perfect resonance (Identity) with God's thereby taking the rest of us with Him.
He needs us no more than we need a brain cell as the middle man for us.
God doesn't but we do. In my view, each sentient species has to develop their consciousness to be resonant with God's consciousness (agape love). We were failing even to try. Jesus elevated His human consciousness into perfect resonance (Identity) with God's thereby taking the rest of us with Him.
Anyone ever wonder if there is life somewhere else in the universe? Maybe even intelligent beings. What their notions about the same thing might be? Imagine such a place where there is no Bible or Koran, Jesus or Mohammad, but an altogether different take on all this. What I wouldn't give to read their threads instead!
Rather than the same old rehash of what our consciousness has dreamed up here to date...
Anyone ever wonder if there is life somewhere else in the universe? Maybe even intelligent beings. What their notions about the same thing might be? Imagine such a place where there is no Bible or Koran, Jesus or Mohammad, but an altogether different take on all this. What I wouldn't give to read their threads instead!
Rather than the same old rehash of what our consciousness has dreamed up here to date...
Anyone ever wonder if there is life somewhere else in the universe? Maybe even intelligent beings. What their notions about the same thing might be? Imagine such a place where there is no Bible or Koran, Jesus or Mohammad, but an altogether different take on all this. What I wouldn't give to read their threads instead!
Rather than the same old rehash of what our consciousness has dreamed up here to date...
Just look at the library of alexander. If that didn't burn.
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