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To most people in the forum, it probably doesn't matter what you said later on since their eyes have glazed over. Perhaps you should ask the moderators to change the title of the thread and make it more realistic.
Well, as I said I am not trying to reach the Christians here because they are unreachable, though I would gladly engage them in an intelligent conversation on the issue--the operative word being "intelligent"--but I know that is impossible so I am shooting for the lurkers. Someone, I can't remember who but I vaguely recall it was Mink, said "How do you know the lurkers even want to read your posts? They probably find them as boring and repetitious as I do" or words to that effect. And maybe they do, I'm not a mind-reader. But if there's any chance they do read my posts well, I'm happy to waste my time if I can be reasonably certain they will make an informed decision about accepting a mythical figure as their Lord and Savior and sell their soul to him for life without knowing what they are letting themselves in for. That seems a reasonable way to spend one's remaining few years on earth--keeping people from squandering their lives on a myth.
Well, as I said I am not trying to reach the Christians here because they are unreachable, though I would gladly engage them in an intelligent conversation on the issue--the operative word being "intelligent"--but I know that is impossible so I am shooting for the lurkers. Someone, I can't remember who but I vaguely recall it was Mink, said "How do you know the lurkers even want to read your posts? They probably find them as boring and repetitious as I do" or words to that effect. And maybe they do, I'm not a mind-reader. But if there's any chance they do read my posts well, I'm happy to waste my time if I can be reasonably certain they will make an informed decision about accepting a mythical figure as their Lord and Savior and sell their soul to him for life without knowing what they are letting themselves in for. That seems a reasonable way to spend one's remaining few years on earth--keeping people from squandering their lives on a myth.
Is this because you perceive Christians as a monolith, and you know the real truth?
Is this because you perceive Christians as a monolith, and you know the real truth?
I'm not sure what you mean by monolith, Hayle. If you mean this impenetrable fortress, then yes, I perceive Christians as enclosing themselves with this wall of steel through which no truth that contradicts their firmly-held beliefs can penetrate. Do I know the truth? Yes, I do. That's why I am so confident no Christian can stand against me with historical fact. Because ALL the historical facts are on my side, Hayle. And the historical facts say that nobody from that time outside of Christianity ever heard of a Jesus Christ rising from the dead. You sound like somebody who might be willing to listen to reason, Hayle. Figure this:
Seneca the elder (54BC-39AD)
Important historian living during the time of Jesus' miracles and crucifixion and great earthquake and supernatural darkness that covered the entire Mediterranean area and zombies coming up out of their graves and going into Jerusalem and encountering no doubt a lot of Romans who were in Jerusalem as well as thousands of Jerusalem residents that these zombies supposedly appeared to according to Matthew.
FACT: Seneca doesn't mention a single word about Jesus or his crucifixion or all these supernatural events. Nada. Zilch.
Tiberius (42BC-37AD) Roman emperor during the time of Jesus. Can anyone seriously believe the Roman emperor would not have known of these things going on in his kingdom?
FACT: Tiberius doesn't make any mention of a Jesus Christ. Nada. Zilch.
5.Philo of Alexandria (20BC-50AD)
In 39 CE Philo was in Jerusalem where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words of Philo have survived. He offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and Moses more than a thousand times.
FACT: Philo makes no mention of Jesus or any of the events connected to his crucifixion. Nada. Zilch. 6.Seneca the Younger (4BC-65AD)
In c.55AD, penned a 600-page treatise on Morals
FACT: Seneca the Younge rmentions NOTHING of Jesus. Nada. Zilch.
Does that make sense to you, Hayle? That the three most prominent historians of Jesus' age and the Roman emperor during Jesus' time don't write a single word about Jesus?
I can try to engage Thoreau or Baptist with these indisputable historical FACTS and you know what they will say to me? They'll say, "Ohhhhhhhh no! You don't sucker me into any intelligent conversations about Jesus being a myth!"
It's almost laughable how terrified they are of talking about Jesus mythicism, as if merely mentioning it is going to curse them with some sort of karma that will haunt him to their graves and into the afterlife.
No Thrill, I wasn’t talking about a physical/tangible body of Jesus or God, I was talking about the spiritual experience of them which is intangible like love is.
But you're missing my point, rose. Or I'm missing your point. I don't know--somebody is missing SOMEBODY'S point here. Let look at what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainrose
But what you miss is there is also those whose proof of Jesus or of God is through direct experience, not through organized religion or the “joining” of anything.
I know that drives you crazy as there is no proof of that. But there is no proof of the phenomenon of “love” either, yet most of us know without scientific proof that we’ve directly experienced love and it’s effect on our lives. Are you willing to say there is no such thing as love because there’s no proof when you know the profound effect it’s direct experience has?
Well, That’s the closest I can come up with to show you there is also the direct experiencing of God.
Whatever the Jesus phenomena and experience is — it is real for millions of humans and can act as a conduit or portal to the experience of God outside of organized religion.
You constantly relate to God as a gender and call God a “he” which comes from the Bible. But to actually experience God is outside the mind and outside human qualities.
Instead of obsessing with the proof of Jesus, why can’t you just let people evolve/mature spiritually in their own way, and just because you’ve never had a direct experience of God allow that perhaps others have…...
So I see what you're saying. You're saying that this soft fuzzy feeling of love that Christians get when Jesus invades their being and reveals himself to them is proof that Jesus is a real being. There's just one problem with that, rose:
"Falling In Love Hits The Brain Like Cocaine Does
Falling in love affects intellectual areas of the brain and triggers the same sensation of euphoria experienced by people when they take cocaine, researchers from Syracuse University reveal in an article in Journal of Sexual Medicine."
Getting high on Jesus is no different to the brain than getting high on love or getting high on cocaine. All three affect the exact same pleasures areas of the brain. So what these Christians who have a Jesus experience are feeling are the exact same brain chemicals as the brain chemicals that gives a person a pleasure when they experience love or when they use cocaine.
Now answer me this question, rose:
If Jesus was real wouldn't Jesus being affecting an entirely different area of the brain than cocaine and romantic love?
Can you see that biology proves that experiencing Jesus is no different than experiencing any other mechanism that triggers the pleasure areas of the brain and releases the exact same chemicals?
This pretty much proves that Jesus isn't real. It's all neurotransmitters, rose.
Bart Ehrman who is a well respected though controversial Bible scholar and I might add an atheist disagrees with you.
"Ehrman said he had long received occasional emails from atheists and others asking him if he thought Jesus actually lived. Then last year, he accepted an award at a meeting of the American Humanist Association in Cambridge, Mass. While there, he was dismayed to find many humanists, who describe themselves as "good without God," adhered to widely discredited notions that Jesus never lived." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-j...rman_n_1400465
"Ehrman points out that only about 3 percent of Jews in Jesus' time were literate, and Romans never kept detailed records. (Decades after Jesus' crucifixion, three Roman writers mention Jesus in passing, as does the Jewish historian Josephus.) Though the Gospel accounts are biased, they cannot be discounted as non-historical. As for Jesus being a Jewish version of the pagan dying and rising god, Ehrman shows that there is no evidence the Jews of Jesus' day worshipped pagan gods. If anything, Jesus was deeply rooted in Jewish, rather than Roman, traditions." -https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-jesus-exist-bart-ehrman_n_1400465
It may be difficult for Christians to hear that Jesus is not God but there are some Scriptures in the Bible that suggest that very idea. Similarly it may be difficult for atheists to believe that Jesus actually existed but neither should be afraid of exploring the truth. It's not an earth shattering idea that Jesus actually existed. Just don't accept Wiki or You Tube or whatever tripe is on the internet as the "gospel." Examine the source that its coming from before you conclude Jesus never existed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Apparently Ehrman also agrees that Paul says Jesus was a pre-existent angel in Galatians 4:14.
Ehrman also definitely accepts that parts of the gospels are non-historical.
It should not be earth shattering that gospel Jesus did not exist, even if based on an actual man that did not do anything mentioned in the NT.
Such as Paul's letters and Hebrews?
Your response is what Ehrman is saying to atheists.
In short, the majority of scholars, whether religious or secular, accept the historicity of Jesus. This is regardless of the objections raised about the true authorship of various parts of the Bible, its historical accuracy, etc.
The view of Jesus that some hold even those who once identified as "Christians" is different than others who see Jesus as real. It's striking really same material read but totally different outcomes.
For those who view Jesus as real it's the characteristics that have an impact.
I'm not alone when I say a good many of us read the "Gospels" and view Jesus as a young man who moved around with ease among women whether they had a tarnished reputation or not. Among those who were cast out as sinners and those who considered themselves untarnished. And he did it in a way that he was the somebody that made others feel like somebody. No pretense. no sentimentality, principled loving and forthright. Someone who did not seek fame, riches, power, or the next thrill but was not shy about attending dinner parties or weddings. A patient teacher. A loving son. A loyal friend. Someone who was very much in contrast to the various gods or half gods that he's supposedly modeled after.
Someone most definitely human. Someone most definitely believable. Just my opinion.
But you're missing my point, rose. Or I'm missing your point. I don't know--somebody is missing SOMEBODY'S point here. Let look at what you said:
"Going to church ‘makes your brain light up like you’re on cocaine’
Now answer me this question, rose:
If Jesus was real wouldn't Jesus being affecting an entirely different area of the brain than cocaine and romantic love?
This pretty much proves that Jesus isn't real. It's all neurotransmitters, rose.
LOL
Yes, you are definitely missing the point Thrill. But I appreciate your effort!
As I stated in that very original post and many times on other threads — experiencing God is OUTSIDE the brain. It’s in the spiritual realm. The wisdom, the guidance, the RELATIONSHIP is not of or limited by this physical human realm.
It has been proven with some NDEs in hospital settings that SOMETHING leaves the body and can observe the doctors, the environment, the conversations, even events in other rooms. Dr. Alexander Eban is an awarded brain surgeon — his NDE (and others) was recorded and documented as flat brain — not possible for any activity yet SOMETHING CLEARLY left his body and experienced higher level of consciousness than the brain can possibly transmit. There are many other well-documentend NDEs that prove this.
The point being — the brain activity you are using is just the hardware — like a television set or computer that receives the information and can analyze, create chemical/physical exchanges, but is not the SOURCE of it.
The Jesus “phenomenon “ is real. I call it the phenomenon because we do not have direct proof of much of the Bible stories and organized Christianity has many problems and contradictions , yet the “spiritual” phenomenon and experience of Jesus for millions of people has opened the door to God and the spiritual realm. There are clearly other portals into the spiritual realm besides Jesus.
My husband’s door was through Advaita.
Why some experience and others don’t, I and others can only surrender to the mystery of it….
Last edited by mountainrose; 12-10-2022 at 04:42 AM..
Hey, BF, take a look at the books in #1092. Maybe you'll get some answers there. Just admit it. You're not interested in engaging with anyone on the topic of Jesus mythicism.
How about just trying to deliver on what was promised, instead of referencing someone else's poor attempt to discredit God?
LOL
Yes, you are definitely missing the point Thrill. But I appreciate your effort!
As I stated in that very original post and many times on other threads — experiencing God is OUTSIDE the brain. It’s in the spiritual realm. The wisdom, the guidance, the RELATIONSHIP is not of or limited by this physical human realm.
It has been proven with some NDEs in hospital settings that SOMETHING leaves the body and can observe the doctors, the environment, the conversations, even events in other rooms. Dr. Alexander Eban is an awarded brain surgeon — his NDE (and others) was recorded and documented as flat brain — not possible for any activity yet SOMETHING CLEARLY left his body and experienced higher level of consciousness than the brain can possibly transmit. There are many other well-documentend NDEs that prove this.
The point being — the brain activity you are using is just the hardware — like a television set or computer that receives the information and can analyze, create chemical/physical exchanges, but is not the SOURCE of it.
The Jesus “phenomenon “ is real. I call it the phenomenon because we do not have direct proof of much of the Bible stories and organized Christianity has many problems and contradictions , yet the “spiritual” phenomenon and experience of Jesus for millions of people has opened the door to God and the spiritual realm. There are clearly other portals into the spiritual realm besides Jesus.
My husband’s door was through Advaita.
Why some experience and others don’t, I and others can only surrender to the mystery of it….
Rose, do you firmly believe that there is only ONE way to get to heaven and that is through believing Jesus is your savior?
How about just trying to deliver on what was promised, instead of referencing someone else's poor attempt to discredit God?
I've presented more evidence to prove Jesus is a myth than you could ever match to prove he's real. Read the books, BF. That's all I have to say to you. Here's the list in case you missed it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
1. The Jesus Hoax: How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for Two Thousand Years by John G Jackson
2. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? by John W. Loftus
3. Jesus Never Existed: An Introduction to the Ultimate Heresy by Kenneth Humphreys
4. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient Biblical studies)
5. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All by David Fitzgerald
6. The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M Price (PhD in scriptural studies)
7. Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty
8. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R MacDonald
9. Deciphering the Gospels Proves Jesus Never Existed by RG Price
10. Jesus: Mything in Action Volumes I, II and III by David Fitzgerald
Last edited by thrillobyte; 12-10-2022 at 08:29 AM..
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