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As a society, we have been correcting bad ideas for thousands of years. That is not proselytizing, and pretending atheism is proselytizing is really attacking those religions that actually proselytize by pointing out it is a bad thing.
It is the same as calling atheism a religion to mock atheism, by using 'religion' as a term of derision, ironically mocking and bashing religion.
From where I am sitting, it seems to me you've "hit the nail on the head."
In all honesty, it was a big eye opener when I moved to America. I literally never believed in hell.
I thought only a very few fringe religious fundamentalists believed it.
I also thought creationism, young earth, evolution denial etc was a very, very small minority fringe, something like the size of mormons who still believe in having multiple wives.
It was a big shock to find I had the scale of this way, way underestimated.
What I believe is pretty much the norm in the UK.
I doubt Americans care, but Brits think Americans are nutcases in this regard. I'm sorry to say that, but it's the truth.
You can get a sense of the type of scorn in this video clip from a quiz show, talking about 'The Great Disappointment'.
"Was this in America by any chance?"
"How did you guess?".
"They wont learn will they?"
I remember traveling in South Africa with a group of Americans. Our tour guide was a well educated South African, and he had the same sort of perspective about Americans. As he clearly expressed over dinner chats about gun control and Trump...
What is interesting to consider about the United States, however, that I think is often missed by foreigners, is that the United States is made up of 50 states with an overall total population that typically dwarfs the population of European countries. Many states in America are very different from the others. Here in California, for example, the demographics regarding religion, politics, guns, etc., is very different than the states that make up the "Bible Belt." All of Europe is a little more homogeneous compared to the variety of states in America. Here being in one state vs another is often like being in different countries.
Very interesting thread. I wanted to say though that I see Christianity brought up several times, and that there are many religions that believe in God or a spiritual being, etc., not just Christianity. I know many know this, but often what I see is that Christianity is brought up and with what is seen as its shortcomings geing the reason someone doesn't seem to believe in God. There are so many options, but giving up on religions in general due to Christianity is not necessary.
I believe in God, but left Christianity, and that isn't so popular with the people I know. That can be a little tough, because when you make the "exit" from a particular group's beliefs, they want to "save" you from yourself - a really pain in the behind now for decades!
I totally understand why just anyone with any belief would be here, unless they were close minded, or were simply not that comfortable with their beliefs fearing that they might waiver if reading beliefs and reasons that others have.
Glad you find the thread interesting. Me too...
I think one of the reasons Christianity is brought up over other religions is because most of us have Christian backgrounds, or are Christians. Some even like to argue that America is a Christian country. It would be even more interesting if other religions where more often referenced in this thread/forum, but there is a bit of that too.
What tends to work very well for religion are the same "ingredients" that make up most if not all religions in any case. Regardless the religion. One such ingredient is faith, for example.
Is this a fact? Can you cite a source? I'm curious. Do you mean religious exposure from family, or culture in general?
An atheist coworker of mine was greatly surprised by her daughter, who wanted to attend church with one of her friends around the age of 10, and then continued into adulthood. She didn't understand where her daughter's spiritual impulse came from, since it didn't come from her or her husband. She did then recognize her daughter as "spiritual" if not religious. I think kids not raised in a religious family might just as well become curious about the religious experiences of their peers, and perhaps perceive that they're missing out on something or suspect their parents have blind spots.
I have often noted how any good, close, look at the map of religions of the world well proves out what I would call a fact here. Yes...
If you study the map of where religions are prominent in all the countries of the world, it's easy to see that where one is born largely determines what religion they will follow. Born in North Africa? Indonesia? Chances are you are Muslim. India? Hindu. The Americas? Christian.
What does this tell us other than how we're raised has a very significant influence on whether we are religious or not, and in the case of religious upbringing, also which religion we end up following.
What does this fact also tell us about the validity or justification of believing in one religion vs another, or any religion?
There is plenty to consider about the influence of inculcation at a young age as well if interested and/or doubtful about these facts...
I know, atheists apparently don't have inquiring minds. I'm curious and interested in religion, other than Christianity, but I will debate a Christian if I feel there is something to be learned from it. I highly doubt it but just in case. Reflect away, but don't spend too much time trying to figure out why this interests you. It's simple.....it's interesting to you, that's all that matters. And that you learn something.
As a former Christian, it can literally drive a person mad trying to decipher the numerous teachings. Who's right or more accurately, to what varying degrees are they wrong? To me, no religion has it right because there is no god to consider. I don't share your optimism about one day all atheists might believe due to some 'miraculous' knowledge that the majority of mankind could see all along, but we couldn't. No. I'm not here because I think I missed something....I take that back.....I am here because I did miss something.
I missed a normal life, free from religion if I wanted, without horrible consequences. I stated this before but I'm here to learn. After many years of being in a bubble I am free to pursue knowledge. Other religions are one of the main things that interest me.
I have not read the whole thread but I'm thinking that your last question/statement is a very hard NO.
Well good you (or anyone else) is here for whatever your/their reasons! Welcome.
Well, Aires, in your first paragraph you ask, "Is this a fact? Can you cite a source?" Fair enough.
But we can ask you the same about your second paragraph. Is this a fact? Can you cite a source?" Or is it only the non-christian that has to cite sources?
Asking for a source or basis on which an opinion is expressed is only reasonable, as I'm sure you agree. Regardless from whom or for what reason. At the same time, you are right as well to point out providing sources and justifications for opinions or claims of fact/truth goes both ways. Ideally, all good opinions are backed up by facts, good reason and logical justification.
My point remains. Keep the standards the same for both sides. It's called a principle.
My principle is that when someone states something as fact, it should be backed up. Or you want me to lower my standards and present conjecture as fact? And what "side" do you think I'm on anyway?
When I was growing up, I didn't know any atheist families. At my Long Island public school I knew Catholics and Protestants, Jews, Sikhs, and there weren't yet any Muslims in my community.
There is the example of Joy Davidman (whose second husband was C.S. Lewis), who was raised in a secular Jewish family, had an IQ over 150, identified as an atheist, and later converted to Christianity.
Well, phetaroi, I didn't state it as fact. Note the use of the words "might" and "perhaps." As I highlighted in the OP's post, a claim was made "the fact that...". Or do you want me to show a source for the story of my coworker's daughter?
I wonder how many atheists in this thread who were raised with religion and then rejected it, would have behaved had they been raised in secular households without religion. Would some have been attracted to religion by nature, in the absence of nurture? Is there a spiritual vacuum that a certain inquisitive nature abhors?
Please note that what I have explained to be a fact is the "rule of thumb." There are always exceptions to every rule, but the rule remains what it is nevertheless. The rule I've described to be fact in this case is just that. A fact, as well proven by the prevalence of different religions in different parts of the world, strictly because of where people are born and how they are raised. The numbers don't lie...
My principle is that when someone states something as fact, it should be backed up. Or you want me to lower my standards and present conjecture as fact?
When I was growing up, I didn't know any atheist families. At my Long Island public school I knew Catholics and Protestants, Jews, Sikhs, and there weren't yet any Muslims in my community.
There is the example of Joy Davidman (whose second husband was C.S. Lewis), who was raised in a secular Jewish family, had an IQ over 150, identified as an atheist, and later converted to Christianity.
I totally agree. Have I sufficiently backed up what I've passed along as fact here?
My principle is that when someone states something as fact, it should be backed up. Or you want me to lower my standards and present conjecture as fact?
When I was growing up, I didn't know any atheist families. At my Long Island public school I knew Catholics and Protestants, Jews, Sikhs, and there weren't yet any Muslims in my community.
There is the example of Joy Davidman (whose second husband was C.S. Lewis), who was raised in a secular Jewish family, had an IQ over 150, identified as an atheist, and later converted to Christianity.
What I want you to do -- since you asked -- is not rely on the short cut of putting speculation out there to make a point, unless you're going to give some detail about what you speculate something to maybe true. It's an old tactic...and we all do it; but it's still a tactic.
And now, in the post, you bring in personal anecdotes. Well, we all do that, and we are often criticized for doing so because anecdotes are just that.
And what your third sentence above is supposed to be about...I'm not clear at all. Seems like perhaps you're just throwing stuff up against the wall to see what sticks.
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