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Old 05-28-2008, 08:08 AM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 565,433 times
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As an agnostic, atheist, unbeliever, apostate or whatever the flavor of the month is, I think it is safe to say that if, say, the biblical god actually did exist and provided SOLID evidence that he does exist, evidence that cannot be refuted by a 4th grader, evidence that is undeniable and underlines his existence beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would say that at least I would have NO problem bowing before him or doing his will IF that is what he requires. So for the unbeliever, solid evidence that does not conflict with reason, logic and common sense all we ask.

Now what I find odd, however is, believers will conversely tell you tat there is absolutely NOTHING that will shake their faith even lack of evidence. They claim they "believe" without a shadow of a doubt despite even a shadow of evidence for all the things they believe. Believing a man was healed from blindness by Jesus means it is also okay to believe a donkey spoke to a man, a serpent spoke to a woman or the sun stood still for a day.

The interesting thing is, however, doubt is a necessary part of life. It's a necessary ingredient for progress and survival. It allows us to question and re-test if necessary. There is no shame in it, no evil in it. It is not something to be shunned because there is some evil entity whispering contrary evidence in your ears. True, depending on the situation it can stunt growth by creating fear, but it still is necessary to balance the mind against all out gullibility.

So the unbeliever needs evidence to believe to erase all doubt but the believer shuns all doubt and pushes through to believe. Perplexing.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:36 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,589,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
As an agnostic, atheist, unbeliever, apostate or whatever the flavor of the month is, I think it is safe to say that if, say, the biblical god actually did exist and provided SOLID evidence that he does exist, evidence that cannot be refuted by a 4th grader, evidence that is undeniable and underlines his existence beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would say that at least I would have NO problem bowing before him or doing his will IF that is what he requires. So for the unbeliever, solid evidence that does not conflict with reason, logic and common sense all we ask.

Now what I find odd, however is, believers will conversely tell you tat there is absolutely NOTHING that will shake their faith even lack of evidence. They claim they "believe" without a shadow of a doubt despite even a shadow of evidence for all the things they believe. Believing a man was healed from blindness by Jesus means it is also okay to believe a donkey spoke to a man, a serpent spoke to a woman or the sun stood still for a day.

The interesting thing is, however, doubt is a necessary part of life. It's a necessary ingredient for progress and survival. It allows us to question and re-test if necessary. There is no shame in it, no evil in it. It is not something to be shunned because there is some evil entity whispering contrary evidence in your ears. True, depending on the situation it can stunt growth by creating fear, but it still is necessary to balance the mind against all out gullibility.

So the unbeliever needs evidence to believe to erase all doubt but the believer shuns all doubt and pushes through to believe. Perplexing.
The proof of God is all around us. Christians question all sorts of thing also, but the existance of God is not one of them. We may question why something bad has happened to us or why God allowed it to happen. Some turn away from God when things like this happen wanting to blame Him, and some grow closer to Him and learn to turn it into a positive because it's part of God's greater plan for us.

I know you get tired of hearing it, but faith is the biggest part of Christianity. When you get saved and bad things happen, that's when faith is needed the most. There are several components to Christianity and they are all important to spiritual growth and understanding. The easiest part is accepting Christ and getting saved. That's a free gift, and requires nothing but complete surrender and humility.

The walk with God is hard. That's why you hear of so many people backsliding and turning away from God. It is imperative for a new Christian to get into the Word and STAY in it. Satan is shooting flaming arrows at Christians from every direction. It's hard enough that humans expect Christians to be perfect and put that kind of pressure on us, but then we have the burden of Satan's increased attempts to trip us up and bring us back to evil. I've said this before but living like the devil is easy and puts no pressure on folks to adhere to rules.

I've done both, so I know which one is the hardest. I also know which one makes me happy, peaceful and content. I have to watch Christian programming, listen to Christian music, stay away from old friends and even family that aren't Christians to stay solid in my walk with God. There are a lot of sacrifices to be made to remain a Christian. That's why God tells us in the Bible to not be "yolked" to unbelievers. No good comes of it...literally.

You feel like we say the same things over and over and have the same old arguments about what we believe. But there really is only one way to the Father, through Jesus Christ. That one thing right there is the one thing ALL Christians can agree on. The rest is up to you after acceptance of Jesus to continue on the path of righteousness. If you aren't doing something right and God wants to let you know about it, He will convict you of it. Acceptance of Christ, fervent prayer and Bible study are the keys to the proof of God's existance you are looking for.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,270,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post

I have to watch Christian programming, listen to Christian music, stay away from old friends and even family that aren't Christians to stay solid in my walk with God. There are a lot of sacrifices to be made to remain a Christian. That's why God tells us in the Bible to not be "yolked" to unbelievers. No good comes of it...literally.
I hate to say it DayoftheLord, but it sounds like you may be the victim of a cult. Seperating yourself from people who don't believe exactly the same things that you do, especially your friends and family, is a huge red flag. Fortunately though, you are posting here so you have some outside contact. Please reconnect with your friends and family if you are currently staying away from them.

Good luck to you, and please keep posting.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:28 AM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,779,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post

faith is the biggest part of Christianity.


there really is only one way to the Father, through Jesus Christ.


That one thing right there is the one thing ALL Christians can agree on.

I'll repeat what DotLord said, " FAITH is the biggest part of Christianity." There is no need for us to search for a reason to "not believe".

Proverbs 3:5 (NIV)

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;



Just as I trust that my husband loves me and is faithful. I could live my life "looking" for reason to not trust him, but that would not make for a very fruitful relationship. I would live in a state of paranoia.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:39 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,727,034 times
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If i were to tell you theres a man that lives in the woods in a log house, that I know very well.. you might say how do you know? I would say because Ive been to his house, sat at his table, and spent time there, fellowshipped with him.you might say wheres the proof?
I would have to say go..look for yourself, if you seek, you will find.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:24 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,589,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidus View Post
I hate to say it DayoftheLord, but it sounds like you may be the victim of a cult. Seperating yourself from people who don't believe exactly the same things that you do, especially your friends and family, is a huge red flag. Fortunately though, you are posting here so you have some outside contact. Please reconnect with your friends and family if you are currently staying away from them.

Good luck to you, and please keep posting.
Read into it whatever you want, but I'm not part of a cult. Before you are so quick to judge someone, you should take the time to search them and read all of their posts. I'm a part of God's family, and I plan to do whatever it takes to remain in God's family. It's not a matter of someone not believing as I do, it's a matter of how they live their lives. I'm not a member of any church or organization.

I've come to my own conclusions through accepting Christ (alone), studying the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, and have had to disconnect from family members that claim to BE Christians because of their abusive, outrageous, unacceptable behavior. I'm not willing to risk my eternal salvation just to have a relationship with someone who made me and everyone else want to run as far away from God as we could possibly get.

Do you know what scriptures that I'm referring to that say to seperate yourself from such people?

2 Corinthians 6:14-16 (NIV)
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial (Satan)? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?.......
Verse 17
"Therefore come out from them and be separate."
Chapter 7:1
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let up purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."

I'm doing exactly what the Bible tells me to do in order to perfect holiness. There's nothing "cultish" about that. I'm very happy and at peace, which I was not before I accepted Christ as my Savior.
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:08 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 13,238,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
Just as I trust that my husband loves me and is faithful. I could live my life "looking" for reason to not trust him, but that would not make for a very fruitful relationship. I would live in a state of paranoia.
Most of us would say that unless you have some evidence otherwise, trusting your husband to be faithful to you is a sane and sensible trust. But if I were a friend of yours I would expect I would have seen and met said husband with my own eyes and perhaps have seen the telltale signs of a faithful husband for myself. I would know with concrete evidence that he does indeed exist and probably have some behavioral evidence to also convince me that he is most likely faithful and loving to you.

However, if I knew you well and it was apparent that there is no such husband but instead he was only in your imagination, most of us would think you to have a screw loose and be in need of some help to get a grasp on reality.

The analogy of faith in your husband to faith in your god only holds up in the second case of an imagined husband. There is no valid correlation to a real life person and the god. Of the human, there is concrete evidence validated by other people of his existance and perhaps his connection to you. In the case of the god, there is nothing but your's (and other's) say so. It is not a valid comparison.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:04 PM
 
Location: God's Kingdom !!
122 posts, read 190,739 times
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Quote:
So the unbeliever needs evidence to believe to erase all doubt but the believer shuns all doubt and pushes through to believe. Perplexing.


It is difficult for those who are not a part of God's kingdom to understand the one who walks in the Lord by faith. The mind set is not the same and can not be. I truly say this with humbleness of heart.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashame of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Just as Paul was ready to preach the gospel of Christ, so is one who really believes in it , they too are eager to make it known.


But one who is not of the faith will refute it no matter what. Why? Because they truly don't understand where the christian is coming from. They hear the words in the mind, whereas the Christian hears the words in the mind, then the Holy Spirit brings it into the heart. It is who they are....

For when your a christian it is the scripture that one walks in and by it. So it is naturally going to come out of the mouth from the heart of one who believes. It not always because one is being sarcastic or belonging to an cult. But those who do not believe take it as being sarcasm or they belong to a cult.
I'm not stupid either and there are those who come deceiving others for selfish gain and hurt many in the name of Jesus. That truly breaks my heart and it should for the believer and the unbeliever. Thieves and liars come in many ways. Not just in christianity.

Now back to what I wanted to share.....
I'm sure many have heard these scripture, but it is so true for the one who believes....

2 Corinthians 5:7
For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

1Peter 1:7-8
That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith~ the salvation of your souls.

So I just wanted to post my heart and not try to prove anything to anyone, because I can not. Because I live by faith in Christ Jesus. So if the scripture says, I, myself am to walk by faith, not by sight or seen, how do I expect those of the nature of unbelieving to understand the things I walk by faith. It is impossible for the nature of man to reveal that which is possible only by God through His Holy Spirit.

But for the heart that desires and believes,
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is , and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

God Bless to all!!
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Papillion
2,589 posts, read 10,528,500 times
Reputation: 916
Wanting proof and desiring faith are not mutually exclusive... Assuming you believe the scriptures and have faith in God, then there is the instruction that says "test everything"... as a Believer I have no issue with people that seek proof, isn't that a test? I know many in the scientific and legal communities that are believers, it was the proof that brought them to the faith... are all answers available, no - but enough, yes... why don't we have all the anwers, guess if we did then there would be no need for faith.. perplexing isn't it...
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:18 PM
 
43 posts, read 38,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
The proof of God is all around us.
The things around us do not prove God. They prove themselves. But if you're going to go that route, you could say it is proof of "some" God but it certainly isn't proof of the god of Christianity anymore than it is the proof of Allah, Brahma, Odin, Ra or some unknown supreme being that we are not aware of.
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