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Old 05-30-2008, 04:59 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 4,074,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
You are basically blaming me
You're fun to blame, bigthirsty! (j/k!)

Have a great weekend..
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Old 05-30-2008, 04:59 PM
 
4,437 posts, read 6,010,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
You're fun to blame, bigthirsty! (j/k!)

Have a great weekend..
I'm quite blameable!
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:07 PM
 
4,437 posts, read 6,010,430 times
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Oh yeah.. and just for fun..

Investigator finds reasonable grounds for claim of atheism firing - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/05/04/investigator_finds_reasonable_grounds_for_claim_of _atheism_firing/ - broken link)

Atheist files suit against ACS claiming wrongful termination
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:13 PM
Status: "Busy" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Mississippi
6,601 posts, read 8,761,866 times
Reputation: 3978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post

I'd probably tell the person it isn't something that I want to talk about.

As best as I can tell from Troop's posts, he hasn't done that.
I have not done that as of yet. Last night we were not paired up and I was out on the flight line all night with a different partner. I saw him for perhaps a total of thrity seconds last night and that was passing through the building to get something. As of the night that it occurred, he was the one who kept bringing it back up. I will admit, we were both professional in our courtesies. If we were actually "working" the focus was on the task at hand. It was mostly a conversation we would have in between driving out to the various airplanes scattered all over the ramp. That being said, every time we entered the vehicle he was incessantly trying to bring it up. I suppose you're right, I could have said I didn't want to talk about it, but he wasn't being overly obnoxious about it and I couldn't judge what his point was in the beginning. That being whether he was just trying to discern my thoughts on religion or if he was trying to preach to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
It appears to me this is just two friends having a conversation and one of them (Troop) really isn't being honest with the guy.

Why don't you tell him how you really feel, Troop?

Tell him you equate his God to Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy.....tell him that believing a God created the Earth is ridiculous, illogical, and proof of someone's lack of understanding of the natural world.

You know, all the stuff you tell believers here.

Why don't you share what's really in your heart about this subject with him?
Alpha, I'm a little disappointed if that's all you think I amount to in how I feel about things. I think, and this may just be me, that I have gone out of my way to make every single effort to not offend this guy because it is indeed such a delicate subject. I can tell you that although I did not compare the Christian God to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, I did compare the reality of existence of any particular God to quite a few of my favorite Greek and Roman mythological deities. However, Alpha, I think what you are really yenning for me to do is to make an ass out of myself. Quite honestly, if all you think of me is someone who seeks to insult and destroy than you are no better than the proselytizers who claim that is what I am.

If you cannot handle what I say on this forum than don't read what I have to write. I have done everything I possibly can to listen to the advice on both sides of the room and I'm a little disappointed that of ALL the people on here YOU would be the person to suggest that my only opinion (how I really feel) is nothing more than a simple insult. If you remember correctly, and if you read my posts, my initial response to his asking me why I was an Atheist was "For the same reason that you are in regards to all other Gods. I just take it one God further." That, Alpha, encompasses Gods such as Zeus, Thor, Odin, Baal, Chaac, and Ra. It also encompasses Allah and other more modern day Gods as well.

Finally, I don't think you fully understand the "Tooth Fairy" or "Santa Claus" arguments very well. The two are respectively not Gods and should not, in my opinion, be referred to as Gods. What I often use them in comparison to is how we may or may not be able to prove that either of these respective "fairies" may or may not exist. It's no different than a spinoff of Russell's Celestial Teapot in which I am sure you are familiar at this point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
I believe he's sharing with you what's really in his heart.

At least the two of you will then know where you stand with each other on this subject. And I bet he'll stop trying to convince you of a single thing.....
Ah yes, let the ball reside in my court to take it to that level. Allow me to be the one to make insulting comments and that way we'll know where we stand. Instead, I can't take the advice of all the other people on this forum and perhaps just say that I think it's best we agree to disagree or something to that effect. Rather, I need to be the one to utterly insult him (as I have not yet done that) in order for things to come full circle. That's a rather mature way of handling it Alpha. Again, I'm blown away at the mere suggestion of doing so by someone such as yourself.

P.S.- To answer your question from a previous post. No, I did not feel attacked or threatened. I did feel a little peculiar as I have encountered situations like this in the past that did not bode well in the end. So, to say I am a little apprehensive or cautious is indeed based on past experiences. I'm not "scared" of what might happen I just don't feel it was a necessary thing to bring up. The reason I say this is because he and I worked very well as a team together. I hope, I really do hope, that can remain intact in the future and that something as simple as whether or not a man in the sky exists can get in the way of that.
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:34 PM
 
7,768 posts, read 9,724,848 times
Reputation: 3394
So let me get this right, all you guys call this co-worker of Troop's 'rudely arrogant' and when I suggest that if indeed he's rudely arrogant Troop should truly share how he feels....and that makes me the bad guy.

Is the guy rudely arrogant?

Is this totally unacceptable?

Is this way over the line of what's acceptable?

If so, then sharing how you truly feel about others beliefs in deities should be 100% OK.

And Troop, I didn't call you a bad guy or anything else like that. I have no problem with you and sure didn't mean to offend you like that. But you have belittled and insulted belief in God on this board for some time. That's OK. I've probably belittled and insulted a lack of that same belief too.

I'm just saying get real.

If this was soooooo offensive and off the charts 'rudely arrogant', then handle your business and fight fire with fire.

If it wasn't, then what's the big deal?
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:57 PM
 
2,955 posts, read 5,003,050 times
Reputation: 1868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
So let me get this right, all you guys call this co-worker of Troop's 'rudely arrogant' and when I suggest that if indeed he's rudely arrogant Troop should truly share how he feels....and that makes me the bad guy.
Alpha, I'm sure that Troop will respond to you with a more intelligent response than this one but here goes...

Quote:
Is the guy rudely arrogant?
Not really. Just a little bit socially inept.

Quote:
Is this totally unacceptable?
No.

Quote:
Is this way over the line of what's acceptable?
Um...also no.

Quote:
I'm just saying get real.
That's what I like to do. The reality is that this is an anonymous online discussion tool - not real life. The reality is that rules are a little bit different in both arenas. I, for one, post here about my lack of belief in the human religions strictly because it is an anonymous forum and I get to say things to people that I wouldn't normally say because they do not follow the conventions of human interaction. Call me over-conventional (though I doubt that has ever been said about me before in real life) but I believe that working relationships should be kept light for the sake of getting through life. I don't want the headaches that I experience on this forum to touch my real life. That's why I don't go around my workplace asking people to share their most personal beliefs like I do here.

Quote:
If this was soooooo offensive and off the charts 'rudely arrogant', then handle your business and fight fire with fire.
In real life this would be the juvenile response to the situation. It is work. Work matters should be dealt with in a professional manner and it is not the responsibility of co-workers to "deal with" each other in the way that real-life friends do.

Quote:
If it wasn't, then what's the big deal?
Simply put, the big deal as I see it is that Troop is now labeled as an outsider - and potentially much worse than that by some - based on something that is completely meaningless to him (religion). It's just not necessary, fair, or appropriate. It's the reason that I don't talk to my co-workers about religion. I know they are mostly Christian (I live in Texas for chrissake) and I know that some of them would "like" me less if they knew what I thought of their religion. And there is no reason for that because I don't care what they believe - so we may as well just all get along . Why should I make my workplace more stressful than it already is by injecting hot social issues into the atmosphere? It's just not needed.
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Old 05-30-2008, 09:08 PM
Status: "Busy" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Mississippi
6,601 posts, read 8,761,866 times
Reputation: 3978
Actually, I agree with most of what b.frank also said.

There's one variation that isn't HUGE but is certainly important to recognize in my line of work. We work in tandem for a reason. On any given night, within a one hour period, we have close to two-hundred airplanes of all shapes and sizes come rumbling in. Within two to three hours they are fully loaded and gone again. Now, that's roughly two-hundred coming in, requiring maintenance and departing with a four hour period. Needless to say, there's A LOT going on out there. You're head needs to be on a swivel; you need a partner to look out for you. The dangers are real and people get seriously injured out here all the time when they're not paying attention. On top of that, we also work in pairs to check one another's work. Given that we work night shift, there are going to be the nights where one of us probably didn't sleep well. While that's not an end all be all in and of itself, the potential for danger increases. In essence, the key point here is that there needn't be an environment such as that which I work in ALONG with the animosity that something like this can bring.

Gotta Go.
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Old 05-30-2008, 09:33 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 8,777,348 times
Reputation: 2012
Well said b.Frank. There is a difference between voluntary relationships like friendships and working relationships. Everything is not on the same level and if you can't tell the difference, then you either overstep the social boundaries with your co-workers or you don't have any real friends. The rules are there for just the reason Troop described - people need to focus on the work at hand and not on perceived prejudices that have nothing to do with the job. Same thing goes for other personal information. You don't talk about your sex life with your co-workers, you don't have screaming hissy fits to your children next to your co-workers, or anything else too personal and disruptive to smooth relations on the job.

Typically, people react to being pushed like Troop did - non response or very neutral because they don't want to make it any worse and hope that the offender will get the idea that they are not interested in discussing such personal information without a messy confrontation. Managers should intervene when people get too obnoxious but many do not. Hopefully this guy won't push it, but I bet the news has already spread among the judgmental believers.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:08 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,612 posts, read 3,477,837 times
Reputation: 1231
i think that the guy was out of line. he obviously continued a line of converation that he knew was uncomfortable to troop. i refuse to believe that he was sufficiently dense as to not notice it. but he did it anyway.

however, that does not mean that religion and politics are topics that should be banned from the workplace. it means that people should use common sense and mutual respect in order to steer those conversations. if i am working in the bowels of a 747 with just me and my buddy, and we enjoy religious conversations, interact well together,a nd don't get into petty, my-god-is-better-than-your-god arguments, then there is absolutely no reason to tell us that we're out of line by having the discussion.

however, when troop comes aboard and we find out that he does not like to discuss those things, then yes, by standards of respect and good conduct, we should talk about something else.

now, were troop a christian, and still did not like to talk about religion, then we would still be in the wrong if we continued the conversation. and by the same token, if, even as an atheist, he enjoyed religious discussions in person, then there is no reason that we cannot have a resespectful conversation about it.

it is called using your brain, and realizing that you are not the only person in the room. not just abolishing any and all possible offenses in some push for political correctness and rubber-walls safe atmosphere.

so, i say we wait to see if this guy drops the topic, or if he keeps ignorantly pushing it.

by the way, i love the posts on this thread that claim in the same paragraph "why can't you guys get it" (refering to christians in particular), and a second later, "i'm heartened to see that so many of you guys get it". sounds like you are picking and choosing when to acknowledge the fact that some of us theists are not just crazy loons.

aaron out.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:47 PM
Status: "Busy" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Mississippi
6,601 posts, read 8,761,866 times
Reputation: 3978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post

If this was soooooo offensive and off the charts 'rudely arrogant', then handle your business and fight fire with fire.

If it wasn't, then what's the big deal?
That's been my point since, if I'm not mistaken, post #1 of this thread. I'm not trying to fight fire with fire. I'm not trying to make enemies. I wasn't even entirely sure how I should take it.

In case you missed it, the point of the matter is this:

I work with the guy very frequently. He has always gone on and on about his faith and his involvement with the church. I have never once questioned his faith, brought up an opinion on it, or even tried to lead him in any direction as to what I think. I know it's important to him and I let it go without so much as a thought. It appeases the conversation and we get work done as a result.

As a result of a conversation involving gay marriage (that he initiated - quite rudely might I add) approximately two weeks ago, I think his suspicions were risen. It was shortly thereafter that he decided to approach me as to what my wife's beliefs were. It was obvious what he was trying to do. Like I said, it's one of those things that you glean from conversation. Regardless, as my wife is an Atheist, I felt no need to lie to him. He's gone on countless times as to what his faith was, so why are my opinions (or my wife's - and hers' are a little stronger than mine) all of a sudden the subject for conversation and {proselytization?}?

That was the question I wanted to pose to the Christians on this forum. Why is it ok to talk about church, God, etc.. etc.. but when prodded and poked as to what your beliefs are it all of a sudden becomes an "issue"?? Now, was it out of line and arrogant or was it simply a conversation in curiosity? I'm really digging deep in reflecting on the matter to try and figure that out. I do know that when I made the first post that I felt it was a conversation more seemingly of preach and defend rather than "ask and ye shall receive".

So, with that being said, I felt no reason to turn it into something you might see on this forum. The forum is exactly that: an open forum for discussion on all things God or not God and a little bit more. Sometimes it gets a little hairy. You know that. I know that. Emotions run a little high. There are things we are all passionate about on here but I didn't feel the need to bring that same amount of fire into this particular conversation.

This isn't an all out war in which we were trying to throw low blows at one another to see who could win one another over. I still tried to keep in mind that I DO work with this guy very frequently and that I have to keep things formidable in order to preserve some semblance of balance in a work environment. Why that is my duty, I have no idea, since I'm not the one concerned about my beliefs to begin with.

With all of this in mind, I do not think it was SOOOOOO out of line. However, there are others in the workplace that may hear about it that may not take it the same way. The last thing I want is to be put on a pedestal. I just want to do my job, be good at it, and let life go on.

And, by the way, I am paired up with him again tonight. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
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