The ten lost tribes of Israel (Islam, Jews, Old Testament, Hebrew)

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by TravisW

"Saxon" comes from "seacs", which was the name of the knife used by that tribe. I've never read of any evidence that links the Celts with the ancient Hebrews. Most of the websites that I have seen tying Britain with the lost tribes of Israel are in some way related to Anglophiliac Christian Identity movements and include very little actual history in what they promote.

Yep.

The Celts and Saxons have no cultural or linguistic common heritage with the Hebrews.

I've honestly never understood the whole "mystery" of the "lost" tribes of Israel. That would be like the "mystery" of the "lost" Lakota or the "lost" Irish. Meaning there is no mystery, because we know exactly what happened to them.

In the case of the tribes of Israel, the people went into captivity and were disbanded by various conquerors --- Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. A small part (mostly the tribe of Judah) remained intact and were allowed to return, thus become the Jewish people. The rest simply assimilated (by force mostly) into other cultures.

What's the big mystery?

[K-Luv]

I find it odd that no one on here has mentioned Ethiopia, which begs to question just how much people know about religion to begin with. Ethiopia is recognized by Israel as one of the Lost Tribes and Ethiopian Jew's blood lines are believed to be directly related to Mosses.

[rsavari23]

Hi, I just wanted to add something that I believe to be relevant. There is a Biblical narrative of a flood, but the 'world' of that time only consisted of mesopotamia. The 'tribes of Israel' or the 'patriarchal period' according to traditional Rabbinical teaching started at about 2000BC give or take 200 years (some say 1800BC). This actually means that the development of the Chariot and domestication of horses pre-dates or corresponds to Abraham's time. The best reason for this 'flood' story comes from the Black Sea Deluge theory having occurred at about 5600BC and the story WE read in the Bible is the Southern version and the story that the Indo-European peoples have spread through 'mythos' is from the Northern peoples of the Kurgan culture. The Black Sea deluge theory explains all the problems without having to be 'a lost tribe'. I AM DESCENDED FROM THE EURASIAN STEPPE PEOPLES AS PART OF MY HERITAGE. These people include the mixes of mongols and scythians. Because of horse travel and chariots built (and they must have had contact with the sumerians because the wheels invention is attributed to the sumerians, and they also had contact with the patriarchs of the bible because the horse was introduced to the mesopotamian people). Now there is a language problem-'world' has boundaries in the ancient days-SO Noah is simply an example of one in the Bible. And this Black Sea deluge hypothesis would account for the oral histories as people migrated outwards. Doesn't mean there are not already OTHER PEOPLE LIVING ELSEWHERE STILL ON THE ENTIRE PLANET-it is simply an example of a geographic catastrophe in a region of this planet which had major effects around the world as travelers told and retold the story of it to other people and then it was written down in the south and preserved in the sumerian cuneiform. There were still continuous civilizations throughout the planet. It's just that this story got down to us through time.


[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis]Kurgan hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis]Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
[url=http://history-world.org/sumerian_floor_story.htm]Sumerian Flood Story[/url]
[url=http://history-world.org/genesis_narrative_in_the_light_o.htm]The Genesis narrative in the light of recent scholarship[/url]

[Mark S.]

I've never understood why people think the 10 tribes of Israel were "lost." History and the Old Testament make it perfectly clear exactly what happened to them: When the Assyrians conquered, they took the people and scattered them throughout the empire, where they eventually became assimilated into the native populations. They weren't lost so much as dissolved.

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I've never understood why people think the 10 tribes of Israel were "lost." History and the Old Testament make it perfectly clear exactly what happened to them: When the Assyrians conquered, they took the people and scattered them throughout the empire, where they eventually became assimilated into the native populations. They weren't lost so much as dissolved.

Yes - good post!

While growing up in my late teens, some of my religious friends became interested in the subject and this soon led them to all sorts of small publishing houses which were printing books and pamphlets about Israel and who it was today. To make a long story short: much of the motivation behind it was both Anti-Semitic and Racist. The Christian "Identity" Movement (of Timothy McVeigh infamy) was a fond devourer of this type of literature, and it isn't surprising to find it being a favorite subject of the KKK or other racist groups that somehow attempt to retain the monker "Christian".

After inheriting 2000 years of Anti-Semitism, many of these writers are attempting to take it even further in time beyond the incident with Jesus, and extend it to the dispersion of the "true" Israel, while the "Satanic" Jews somehow "stole" their place - while the "true" Israel waits in Oklahoma or Alaska or some valley in the Middle East, waiting for it's day to come back and rule once again. This is just one of the many whacky and genuinely hateful theories that one will find when following that nebulous trail of fringe literature on the so-called "lost tribes of Israel".

As Mark S said - it's pretty hard to find a collective people when the working method of the Neo-Assyrians was to disperse conquered peoples into a mish-mash of other people in various other lands, while simultaneously moving in another group of people in the conquered land - (this separated one from one's god, land, relatives, language, customs, etc..) until the people were no longer "a people". The loss of one's cultural identity was the purpose behind the way the Neo-Assyrians handled conquered peoples by shuffling them around. It worked. A similar process would be attempted by the Neo-Babylonians with the Judahites a few hundred years later, but the outcome would be different this time. Even so, they would clash with those "people of the land" (a politically loaded term) who had either remained (as an unimportant peasant) or been imported, and tried to make life go on. Ezra's own little hateful policy of racial and religious marital purity would not agree with everyone, as can probably be evidenced by the protest in the Book of Ruth.

Anyways - stay away from those crazy folks with their crazy claims about the lost tribes of Israel, or you might find yourself working at a compound, ignoring the little blue flowers, and if female - probably end up in a polygamous marriage. As for the actual tribes? Well... one can wish all one wants, but it won't make it so.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by whoppers

Yes - good post!

To make a long story short: much of the motivation behind it was both Anti-Semitic and Racist. The Christian "Identity" Movement (of Timothy McVeigh infamy) was a fond devourer of this type of literature, and it isn't surprising to find it being a favorite subject of the KKK or other racist groups that somehow attempt to retain the monker "Christian".

Superb post, whoppers. I've been saving up Rep points to give you one where you hit a grand slam home run, as this post did.

We modern day Jews do not get bogged down in the discussion of what happened to these lost Jews (like non-Jews often do). The Talmud (and in greater detail the works of the later Rishonim) tells us that when Eliyahu HaNavi (Elisha the prophet) returns to usher in moschiach, that he will sort out all us Jews and be able to tell us from which tribe we've all descended from. Now take a closer look at what I just said. It does not mean Eliyahu will find the lost Jews, but rather, that he will identify the original tribe of all the current Jews. It could be that all the Jews in the world today have decended from 2 or 3 tribes, and the others ARE truly lost into the dust of nothingness.

As said by Mark S. in an earlier post in this thread, those lost Jews assimilated into the populations where they were distributed. Lost is lost - assimilation is the best tool to kill Jews - history prooves it to be much more lethal than swords, ovens and bombs.

[Meester-Chung]

assimilation is the best tool to kill Jews

according to who?

[AREQUIPA]

I did read an explanatory leaflet about British Israel in my teens. I was ok with it and the tribe of Dan and its disappearance until they got to the suggestion that they went to the 'Isles in the sea' which was taken to be Britain. But the first Islands in the sea are the Mediterranean ones and I still reckon that Crete and the dodecanese and Cyprus are what the Biblical 'Islands in the sea' refer to. So we should be looking in Greece for the lost tribe.

I did not find very convincing the pointing up of 'Dan' elements in European place - names as 'proof' of the trek of the tribe of Dan across Europe en route to Britain, so I have had to regard it as a far- fetched theory.

The recent DNA survey showing native British, Scandinavian and European descent has rather tended to further discredit the British Israel theory. As indeed (when applied to Ashkenazy jews) it upset the 23th tribe theory of the Khazars, which I must say I rather liked.

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

Superb post, whoppers. I've been saving up Rep points to give you one where you hit a grand slam home run, as this post did.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.
My friends worried me greatly when they were exploring this information.

Originally Posted by theflipflop

We modern day Jews do not get bogged down in the discussion of what happened to these lost Jews (like non-Jews often do). The Talmud (and in greater detail the works of the later Rishonim) tells us that when Eliyahu HaNavi (Elisha the prophet) returns to usher in moschiach, that he will sort out all us Jews and be able to tell us from which tribe we've all descended from. Now take a closer look at what I just said. It does not mean Eliyahu will find the lost Jews, but rather, that he will identify the original tribe of all the current Jews. It could be that all the Jews in the world today have decended from 2 or 3 tribes, and the others ARE truly lost into the dust of nothingness.

That's an interesting way of looking at the tribal reunification prerequisite for the arrival of the Messiah (forgive the anglicization, please). Of course, to most Christians, the idea that there are those still awaiting a messiah boggles their mind - so the above will make little sense to them heh heh.

Originally Posted by theflipflop

As said by Mark S. in an earlier post in this thread, those lost Jews assimilated into the populations where they were distributed. Lost is lost - assimilation is the best tool to kill Jews - history prooves it to be much more lethal than swords, ovens and bombs.

Originally Posted by Meester-Chung

according to who?

I believe he's referring to the intense pressure that Jews have undergone to become culturally acclimated to whatever country they have been living in during their diaspora. The Persians were pretty easy-going and encouraged a people to retain their cultural identity, while the subsequent Hellenizing nations were intent on forcing Greek ideals on people, rather than respecting a people's cultural identity. Much of the violence and turbulence over this can be found in the deutero-canonical (or apocyrphal) Jewish books (such as the Maccabees, etc) of that period. It is in that period that the first Jewish martyrs appear - willing to die to uphold their cultural and religious identity, rather than buckle to Hellenization. But not all Jews were willing to go this far. Fast forward through history and you see a constant choice that needs to be made by Jews living in diaspora: lose one's cultural identity and completely become culturally acclimated to the nation one is living in, or retain that identity and risk the trouble that usually comes with being a minority. It is amazing to me that through all these years of history when they had no homeland, many Jews have chosen the hardship of continuing their cultural and religious practices (no matter how orthodox or unorthodox) to the point that they can be said to truly be unique. A recent book (written by a Jew, lest I be accused of racism) examined the genetic makeup of many Jewish people and came to the conclusion that they have retained their unique racial makeup because of this. The book stressed that this indication of identity was not meant to be used as a negative mark - but as an honest look at how their fight against assimilation has produced a very unique people, unlike most others.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by whoppers

I believe he's referring to the intense pressure that Jews have undergone to become culturally acclimated to whatever country they have been living in during their diaspora. The Persians were pretty easy-going and encouraged a people to retain their cultural identity, while the subsequent Hellenizing nations were intent on forcing Greek ideals on people, rather than respecting a people's cultural identity. Much of the violence and turbulence over this can be found in the deutero-canonical (or apocyrphal) Jewish books (such as the Maccabees, etc) of that period. It is in that period that the first Jewish martyrs appear - willing to die to uphold their cultural and religious identity, rather than buckle to Hellenization. But not all Jews were willing to go this far. Fast forward through history and you see a constant choice that needs to be made by Jews living in diaspora: lose one's cultural identity and completely become culturally acclimated to the nation one is living in, or retain that identity and risk the trouble that usually comes with being a minority. It is amazing to me that through all these years of history when they had no homeland, many Jews have chosen the hardship of continuing their cultural and religious practices (no matter how orthodox or unorthodox) to the point that they can be said to truly be unique. A recent book (written by a Jew, lest I be accused of racism) examined the genetic makeup of many Jewish people and came to the conclusion that they have retained their unique racial makeup because of this. The book stressed that this indication of identity was not meant to be used as a negative mark - but as an honest look at how their fight against assimilation has produced a very unique people, unlike most others.

I approve of this whoppers post.

And I think this is a very appropriate time to add this famous Mark Twain quote from 1899:

If statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way. properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain and The Jews


To answer the question, highlighted in blue above - what is the secret of the Jew's immortality? It's the utter refusal to assimilate into the broader culture. It's the insistence, even if one's life must be given up, to worship the one true G-d, as described in our blue print for life, the Torah. Some Jews do assimilate. And they eventually perish from existence. Those Jews who resist assimilation ensure their immortality.