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I daresay the Agnostics position re: something unkowable, is far more rational than all the time, effort, money and wasted potential spent 'worshiping, glorifying and obeying God. Agnostics don't fervently believe that there isn't a God, they fervently argue that God hasn't proven himself to be present in our lives. I see badly ill individuals receiving prayer shawls or having hands laid on and people in the throes of homelessness and unemployment imploring a merciful God to intervene in their reality and 'deliver them from evil'. Mostly it doesn't happen. The scant few that dodge the bullet of random selection give thanks to God . Diatribe? Damn Skippy. I have been on this board well over a year (yikes, maybe 2 years) and it is not out of ignorance of the existence of a Religion and Theology forum that I have refrained from making my opinions widely known. I am making up for my remiss behavior. Most Atheists or Agnostics I know (and I know very few) were lucky enough to be born into Secular families. Honestly, I don't personally know any non-spiritual people who were steeped in religous doctrine from the time they were born like I was. I even know of, a few people who after having being given the inside track on a more rational appraisal of the state of things by a secular childhood later became enveigled by one cult or the other. Sad. In any case I come by my percieved zeal honestly. I can't exactly call it the rapture of the newly converted, I was clear on how ridiculous all this was from the time I was 9 but I hid my views until... gah, I still hide them quite a bit. My father, a much more perceptive guy than I like to give him credit for most of the time I think sees through me. My close friends are only now, as I close in on the end of my 50th year beginning to take some heat (from me) for their traditional viewpoints. You guy's are likewise overdue for some diatribe. Handle it. I realize there must be worse things than being a Believer but, there also isn't any harm in believing in magic. That does not stop most of us from growing out of the belief in secular fairytales and secular magic and mysticism. Why can't we be similarly clear eyed when contemplating our relationship with God?
H
Last edited by Leisesturm; 12-31-2009 at 02:44 PM..
God has always existed. I believe that He exists outside of time and space. It is true that our finite minds cannot comprehend this, nevertheless this is what I believe.
Agreed. We can't fathom this because we are used to a beginning, a middle and an end, but our Heavenly Father has always been.
I don't necessarily believe everything in the Bible, nor do I believe everything I have learned from textbooks and scientists.
If there is a God (my own beliefs are irrelevant), there is no way we could possibly know or understand where, what or who God came from. We also cannot seem to prove or understand the very beginning of time in a non-spiritual explanation of existence. It seems it almost doesn't matter if you believe in a God or not, in regards to the "beginning of time" - this seems like an irrelevant thing to ponder because we cannot ever go back and comprehend this.
I do think that most people who believe in God don't think of Him or It as a "man in the sky." In my experience, most Christians simply believe there is a higher power that is Good. I do not envision God as a guy sitting in the clouds. If there is a God I think it is FAR more abstract than that, and that there is no way we could possibly comprehend what God literally is. Maybe that's what happens in heaven, maybe we are awakened in the afterlife and given insight into how everything works.
I do not know how God came into existence, or how the Universe came into existence, we also have no way of proving whether or not ANYTHING in our own reality exists? It's all a matter of personal perspective.
I believe we cannot prove or disprove anything - and if you think otherwise you are probably missing part of your brain...the part that allows you to acknowledge that reality is in fact entirely based on perspective.
"The fundamental equation in any religion or belief system is faith in a god or higher power. My question is, who created god? We know that something can't exist from nothing, so where exactly did this "man in the sky" come from?
Despite being a very simple question, and one which I'm sure many of you have considered, I realize it's probably difficult for most believers to truly comprehend.
I don't necessarily believe everything in the Bible, nor do I believe everything I have learned from textbooks and scientists.
If there is a God (my own beliefs are irrelevant), there is no way we could possibly know or understand where, what or who God came from. We also cannot seem to prove or understand the very beginning of time in a non-spiritual explanation of existence. It seems it almost doesn't matter if you believe in a God or not, in regards to the "beginning of time" - this seems like an irrelevant thing to ponder because we cannot ever go back and comprehend this.
I do think that most people who believe in God don't think of Him or It as a "man in the sky." In my experience, most Christians simply believe there is a higher power that is Good. I do not envision God as a guy sitting in the clouds. If there is a God I think it is FAR more abstract than that, and that there is no way we could possibly comprehend what God literally is. Maybe that's what happens in heaven, maybe we are awakened in the afterlife and given insight into how everything works.
I do not know how God came into existence, or how the Universe came into existence, we also have no way of proving whether or not ANYTHING in our own reality exists? It's all a matter of personal perspective.
I believe we cannot prove or disprove anything - and if you think otherwise you are probably missing part of your brain...the part that allows you to acknowledge that reality is in fact entirely based on perspective.
"The fundamental equation in any religion or belief system is faith in a god or higher power. My question is, who created god? We know that something can't exist from nothing, so where exactly did this "man in the sky" come from?
Despite being a very simple question, and one which I'm sure many of you have considered, I realize it's probably difficult for most believers to truly comprehend.
How did god come into existence?"
If the Bible is true, God has provided certain revelations that provide answers to your questions.
If the Bible isn't true, then none of this really matters does it?
I will take a shot at this question. I was raised a Christian, took the Sunday school bus to bible school every Sunday for 6 years. There is no way Christ and my belief in God can driven from me..it is to deep inside me.
Some one told me years ago..his thoughts how religion and God came into a reality. I will try to write this as best as I can.
A long time ago..early man..was a hunter and was often killed by beasts during the hunt..his mate or tribe..knew he was dead..but they had images in their heads being alive..they could see him in their thoughts moving. They did not know they had a brain that could make these images when the person was alive.
Here is the dilema, he is dead but they can still visualize him as being alive. They became frightened and buried him..but they could still see him in their minds..maybe they could talk to him...but how to find where he is buried...they must make a marker...different markers to identify dead people.
Then they would go to the markers and try to talk to them..perhaps they felt comfort doing this to help with their grief.
Over time and millions of years..the markers became..a stone..a tomb..a..small temple..a..church..someone one had to explain this purpose seeing dead people alive in their minds..hence...the beginning of religion..and perhaps God..
God has always existed. I believe that He exists outside of time and space. It is true that our finite minds cannot comprehend this, nevertheless this is what I believe.
Would you think I was mentally ill if I told you I believe 1 + 1 = 3?
It is very hard to comprehend for many, but it's not that hard, God is supreme so we do not fully understand that he has always existed,The true God is infinite and beyond the mind of man fully to fathom. The creature could never hope to become equal to his Creator or understand all the workings of His mind. (Ro 11:33-36) But He can be found and approached, and He supplies his worshiper with all that is necessary for the worshiper’s welfare and happiness. (Ac 17:26,*27; Ps 145:16) He is ever at the zenith of his ability and willingness to give good gifts and presents to his creatures, as it is written: “Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the celestial lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow.” (Jas 1:17) Jehovah always acts within his own righteous arrangements, doing all things on a legal basis. (Ro 3:4, 23-26)
Did your parents feel guilty about brainwashing you?
The fundamental equation in any religion or belief system is faith in a god or higher power. My question is, who created god? We know that something can't exist from nothing, so where exactly did this "man in the sky" come from?
Despite being a very simple question, and one which I'm sure many of you have considered, I realize it's probably difficult for most believers to truly comprehend.
How did god come into existence?
Many people identify their physical body as themselves, atheists denying that there is anything else. So I suppose for such a person their Creator is the father of their physical body. And thus for them their earthly father could be considered "God".
Within those limitations it's quite easy to determine how "God" came into existence, just blame the grandfather. But it's not so easy to determine how "Adam" or whoever such people think is the first parent of earthly bodies came into existence. (Though some scientist/philosophers strive diligently to link that first creator of human physical bodies to monkeys or apes or fish or pond scum or whatever strikes their fancy.)
Most people however believe that man is a dual creature, composed of a physical body and a spirit or soul that animates that body and integrates its myriad intelligent parts like a hand inside a glove. The op is I think asking how the Creator of that spirit body came into existence.
For the purposes of discussion in a medium such as this one we can only speculate, but it is my personal thinking that the God who created/organized my immortal spirit body was Himself created/organized by a Heavenly Parent (my 'Heavenly Grandparent') whose spirit body too may have been created/organized by another Heavenly Parent, similar to the model presented by those who create physical bodies on earth.
But that still leaves the op question unanswered.
Some people believe that the universe is filled with a substance/energy/force (some call it "Intelligence") that has always existed. From Intelligence (the substance that connects everything) came the very first Heavenly Parent. In terms of eternity, forever, everything evolved from there. Today it is our turn on a physical earth to gain a physical body (that will eventually be resurrected), experience, and to be tested as we progress along our path of 'growing up' to become by our choices more like, or less like our Heavenly Parent/s and thus to be assigned more or less responsibilities in the entire scheme of things evolved originally from that Intelligence (sometimes known metaphysically as a "Cloud of Unknowing"...)
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Though it's not in their canon, here's a bit of the Mormon perspective on the matter:
Joseph Smith taught that the universe is filled with spiritual and physical matter — light and intelligence that have existed eternally. There is no beginning and there is no end to matter, intelligence, life and God’s family of celestial beings that govern the universe. If we believe in Joseph Smith as a true prophet, there is no need for an origin of life because life is eternal.
Joseph Smith also taught that life progresses under the influence of powerful spiritual and intelligent forces. He taught that through the agency of God’s word and power that life on this world has been carefully planned and created spiritually before being created on this earth in physical form. Joseph Smith also taught that even the lowest of life forms contain intelligence and are quickened by the Spirit of God or light of Christ, which may explain life’s incredible ability to adapt to the many challenges of existence.
Joseph Smith boldly confronted the sectarian Christian world that believed in the contradictions of the Nicene Creed whose god creates all things “out of nothing.” Joseph Smith’s teachings of the eternal nature of matter, intelligence and the light of Christ can be used to evaluate theories that purport to explain the origin and progress of life on earth.
This teaching is contrasted with the evolution-based view that the roots of biological changes can only come from physical DNA mutations, without purpose, without a plan, and completely independent of any other change in the world or universe, in other words, out of nothing.
We believe in Joseph Smith as a true Prophet and the “eternal round” of God’s work and glory. We believe in the spiritual creation of life before the physical creation and the power of the light of Christ that gives life to all things. If we believe these revealed truths, then the random chemical changes that the theory of Darwinian evolution believes are responsible for all progress in living beings must be an incomplete description. Like the 90% of the iceberg that is underwater and we cannot see, there are more forces that affect the progress of life than what we can see, study and measure in the physical world.
It is profound. I only expanded on your point to myself address the flimsy dismissal of God's eternal existence as a "cop-out" as well, which is petulant and has no place in a discussion whose purpose is discovery. It has no effect on ontology's profundity but to offer a bit of spittle. But this is an agreeable disagreement as I granted.
I concur!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee
(And I still don't think Plantinga's modal logic enhancements of Anselm's argument strengthen it, except for believers, and that's of course the issue.)
This is an interesting topic to me. I am fascinated by the ontological argument (it's various forms). But maybe that's another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee
My main point, really, is that as a matter of choice between two conclusions, I choose belief over skepticism. Why? (It's certainly personal; how could it be otherwise?): Because the other choice can only be agnosticism, not atheism. The atheist does have the logical burden of ontological proof, to prove he/she can dismiss all possibilities in all realms in all dimensions...in other words, prove his/her omniscience to disprove God. Tricky paradox. Personally, from belief comes a firm ground as you term it, where I can grow a cosmology to live by, as opposed to nomadic skepticism that must toss every unproved proverbial apple aside--irony intended . If that's all where God comes from then it's still worth it.
I agree. There is a choice here on how to live. Skepticism or belief. Despair or hope. One chooses. I choose hope. I choose to live my life according to a Christian model of reality, which provides a moral, aesthetic and ontological space in which I can flourish. I choose the rich tapestry of the Christian view over the impoverished atheist or agnostic model.
Let me add: one hears again and again on these boards, and in conversation with atheists (in books, in person) that faith is nothing but "unjustified belief." Faith is naught but the lack of thinking. Faith is vile, and stands against reason. Faith is a form of irrationality or stupidity. It goes on. All of this is no more than undisguised bias, as if the agnatheist (I just coined that term--I expect royalty checks) were above the human condition. It's sanctimonious. But it's also completely incorrect. Faith is difficult. Faith is a life's work. It takes courage. Faith involves a constant struggle of one form or another. Agnatheism is easy--I can think of no intellectual position easier than skepticism. The trouble is that most agnostics and atheists don't go far enough in their skeptical commitments (they don't take skepticism to its logical conclusions). Faith is struggle, and part of the struggle is against one's own skepticism. Faith thus involves a constant dialogue with reason, with having courage in the face of uncertainty. With committing one's entire life to live a certain way, even though the outcome is uncertain, even though "reason" provides no sure or certain answers. Faith is far from being a "brain dead" activity, but involves the whole person--including reason--in a major existential commitment.
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. Diatribe? Damn Skippy. I have been on this board well over a year (yikes, maybe 2 years) and it is not out of ignorance of the existence of a Religion and Theology forum that I have refrained from making my opinions widely known. I am making up for my remiss behavior. Most Atheists or Agnostics I know (and I know very few) were lucky enough to be born into Secular families. Honestly, I don't personally know any non-spiritual people who were steeped in religous doctrine from the time they were born like I was. I even know of, a few people who after having being given the inside track on a more rational appraisal of the state of things by a secular childhood later became enveigled by one cult or the other. Sad. In any case I come by my percieved zeal honestly. I can't exactly call it the rapture of the newly converted, I was clear on how ridiculous all this was from the time I was 9 but I hid my views until... gah, I still hide them quite a bit. My father, a much more perceptive guy than I like to give him credit for most of the time I think sees through me. My close friends are only now, as I close in on the end of my 50th year beginning to take some heat (from me) for their traditional viewpoints. You guy's are likewise overdue for some diatribe. Handle it. I realize there must be worse things than being a Believer but, there also isn't any harm in believing in magic. That does not stop most of us from growing out of the belief in secular fairytales and secular magic and mysticism. Why can't we be similarly clear eyed when contemplating our relationship with God?
. If that's all where God comes from then it's still worth it.
