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Old 06-17-2008, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 262,946 times
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i chose to make a separate thread on this topic, hope you find it beneficial by God Willing.

What is free will?

It's the freedom to do whatever you want with your capabilities, you feel it in your soul and heart, you're free to do whatever you want.

So how Religion tells us that God knew from the beginning every act i will do in my life, and if so then if i'm a bad person, and God created me knowing this, how then he will judge me accordingly?

Here most scholars reply that He foresee what you will do, but He did not compel you to do anything you do with your will.

But another moslim thinker explained this more clearly, he is Dr. Mostafa Mahmoud.

*******************

Well this takes us to the existence and non existence issue.

Before we were created, before anything was created, what was it called?:

A non existent object, a possibility of an object, Just a possibility.
But this possibility is known to God, he knew that the possibility of this person is to be a good person, and the possibility of that person is to be a bad person.

Existence is God will, no one else, God the one the only one is the only ruler of existence, how we have free will is an issue of existence (God) blessing the non existence (ourselves and the universe) with the bless of existence.

Again to clarify, every one of us was a non existence opportunity wishing for God to create it, and so He created it as it wishes, he created the evil one cause he wanted to be evil, and he created the good hearted man cause he wanted to be good hearted, he created satan cause satan in the non existence wanted to be saten, and created the angels cause angels in the non existence wanted to be angels.

In the holy Qur'an many times meaning (And when He wants something, He tell it be, and it is)
Look (yacool lahoo) "Tell it", tell it in the non existence, See what i mean.

*******************

So the choice is made even before the moment we are created, every single moment and incident is recorded by God from the beginning, time is just a value to Him, Just a value in His huge matrix, the universe and us.

So yes we have free will, Only cause God created us as we really wished, as we really are, and He reveals us to ourselves day by day, He has full control over His matrix, but He gave us free will so as to discover ourselves.

*******************

Another example:

''To God is the highest example, there's nothing compared to God"


A school teacher who is a good teacher, doesn't he know every student in his class, and can predict clearly who will study and succeed, and who will fail, very simple, does this mean that he made that student study and succeed, and made the other ignore and fail, no of course not, he only gave his knowledge to the students and every one of them has all free will to do the right or wrong.

Compare that to God, doesn't He know every one of us, He is the Creator of us, the Creator of all things, so of course although He gave us all free will to do right or wrong, He knows exactly what we will do, He is the Knower, the Seer.

*******************

A following question:

Then why someone who wishes to be rich isn't so, his wish is to be rich? or he is ill and wishes to be healthy.

This is because God wants this person to reveal his true identity and heart, and so he makes the process of "Fetna"

Fetna is when you put gold in fire so dirt and unwanted solids gets out of it and leaves it pure gold. It's a heart purification process.

Also Hell in a arabic is a place for ''Fetna'' for many persons.
In the holy Qur'an a part of a verse meaning ''when they are being ''yoftanon'' in fire''.

*******************

So lets say a person has good in his heart, but this good will not be revealed and he will never come near God except when he is ill or poor, If he is rich he will fall in sins and crimes, So God by His mercy make to him this "fetna" to reveal the gold of his heart.

So when i see a rich good hearted man who is worshipping God, doing good deeds, i respect him very much, cause this man God knew he doesn't need a hard "fetna" to reveal the good of his heart, He trusted him with this money cause he knew he will do good with it.

Lets say another person who is rich and a criminal, he doesn't worship God or do good deeds, Why did God give him this money and health?

Cause God knew that this person is an evil one, he will not worship God or purify his heart even if he is ill or poor, So God gave him this money and health to enjoy it in this life, and leaves his punishment to the hereafter.

*******************

In the hereafter what will happen, well, this is for God to decide, but we try to understand, it depends on the heart of the person, If he has one atom of good in his heart then he will not be eternal in hell, he will eventually enter paradise after his heart is purified, (Note that one atom of good refer to one atom of God the one the only one, it's a human nature).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post

There is an issue though that i thought about so much, In the holy Qur'an there is a balance in speech bet. mentioning paradise and joy in the after life, and hell and torture for sinners, etc. I always asked myself why?

I found that holy Qur'an replied to this by mentioning in meaning that the threaten of torture for sinners is to make them repent and keep away from what God dislikes. So this threatening speech is because God loves us, He wants us to earn paradise by His mercy.

I found that His justice requires that sinners who persist to major sins till death must be punished in hell to be purified in order to earn the right for paradise afterwards.

Also a personal thought that from His justice is that eternal hell is for human devils who have no single atom of good in their hearts, to be eternal in hell doing all their sins there and living the kind of life they chose, and so torturing each other and killing each other over and over again, they can't live in paradise cause they'll hate it, they can't be thankful towards God a single second, so paradise is worse than hell to them.



May God have mercy on any person with one atom of good in his heart, amin.


peace
*******************

Here is a language analysis:

This also regards to the arabic word (Khaledon), this word means being a long time, long time in hell for example, it does not mean eternity, while long time can be eternity, it does not necessary mean eternity. (This is a very known word meaning fact in the arabic language),
eternity means in arabic (ilaa alabad) (abada).

When we look in the holy Qur'an and see haw many times (Khledoon) was mentioned alone regarding hell, of even not mentioned at all, it is most of times, and how many times (abadaa). (app. only two times).

God leaves all options for Himself alone, and tells us He's merciful and forgiving, it's not a hard thing to understand if you read and think carefully.

*******************

Finally we got to the main benefit of free will, it's the free will love for God, with this love we can earn eternal paradise by His mercy.

Hope this clarify the issue more guys. and sorry for the long illustration.

Peace.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 06-17-2008 at 06:23 AM..
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 262,946 times
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I posted a reply in the other thread that is important regarding my understanding of heaven and hell

I saw it's important to add it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
Hell and paradise are places for ranking, there are many degrees in hell and paradise.

In the holy Qur'an the word "abda" from its meanings eternity, or another meaning "always", is mentioned regarding hell only app. 3 times.

As i said my personal understanding, most humans will eventually enter paradise in their rank, low rank or higher rank after being purified in hell if they made big sins.

As for humans who have no single atom of good in their heart, i personally do not think that their torture will be for eternity, i understand that after punishment for their sins, they'll stay in hell in a low rank of living, as i said they can do crimes to each other there, but they will not be close to God, they chose, it's their choice not to have a single atom of good in their hearts.

That's my personal understanding.

In the holy Qur'an God is the most merciful, so i agree with you partially, God only threaten for torture cause he loves us and wants for us a good rank in the hereafter.


Peace
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:42 AM
 
6 posts, read 18,092 times
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And how do you know all these? Don't tell me from the Quran! What happened before and beyond you can never be certainly known. Is there the beyond, as you seem to know? I am surprised you seem to know all that... all that happened before and beyond you. In this way religion becomes useless. But religion, as useless as it is, can also be very useful... but only by serving as knowledge base or traditional practice (or even as a mere necessity to keep people from getting bored) other than a knowledge claim. When it begins to make a claim to truth, religion loses all its purpose... what makes a claim to truth, it be science or religion, is overtly useless; wonder why science is useles these days?

***** you spoke of free will. There is no way on earth is there the possibility of the so-called free will. No will is free; the will is forever bound to your needs. You as a person are forever bound to your needs. Somewhere in the depth of your mind you influence the will, not the other way round.
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Old 06-18-2008, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 262,946 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phemela View Post
And how do you know all these? Don't tell me from the Quran! What happened before and beyond you can never be certainly known. Is there the beyond, as you seem to know? I am surprised you seem to know all that... all that happened before and beyond you. In this way religion becomes useless. But religion, as useless as it is, can also be very useful... but only by serving as knowledge base or traditional practice (or even as a mere necessity to keep people from getting bored) other than a knowledge claim. When it begins to make a claim to truth, religion loses all its purpose... what makes a claim to truth, it be science or religion, is overtly useless; wonder why science is useles these days?


I read and heard the Islamic interpretations regarding this issue from different moslim scholars and thinkers, plus my personal understanding, these are my sources. This is the opinion i chose., you have the right to take or leave it of course.

You say that religion is useless, this is your choice, religion is a human need that God created us with, God is in every human heart, it's the person who chooses to ignore this fact.

When any normal person feels danger, God immediately comes to his mind for aid.

And Islam and science have no contradiction, it the wrong understating that make contradiction, on the contrary, scientific signs in the holy Qur'an and prophet's (pbuh) traditions prove that the holy Qur'an is from God.

Commission on Scientific Signs

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar


Islam summons mankind to worship God the one the only one, free from any pagan perception about Him, it agrees with the natural creation of the heart.





Quote:

***** you spoke of free will. There is no way on earth is there the possibility of the so-called free will. No will is free; the will is forever bound to your needs. You as a person are forever bound to your needs. Somewhere in the depth of your mind you influence the will, not the other way round.
You need money, you have the will to work hard for it, or steel or kill for it, simple.

You need sex, you have the will to get married, or rape an innocent girl.


We have free will, and God allowed us to practice this will, though he knew exactly what we will do.


Peace
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:30 AM
 
6 posts, read 18,092 times
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You did not reply as intellegibly as I hoped you would; nevertheless I respect your points. I also respect you as a person with the individual "choice". From your response I liked most that you are passionate about your culture and religion. What I liked least was your attempt to affiliate science with religion, especially the religion you so passionately feel about. This is my opinion thus, that intellect (assuming it is science) and passion (assuming it is the will entagged in your religion) can never go together.

You passionately said that "religion is a human need that God created us with; God is in every human heart...", this should answer why I said Religion is useless, because I also said it is useful... but as a tradition, culture and practice (something we should passionately feel and be proud about, like you being proud of your religion). Religion is useless when it claims to know the truth out there; because if it knew the truth, then why would it try so hard to convince people that it is the truth. The will of God (Islam, Jew, Christian, etc) is true in itself, it does not need to be proven by "Moslim scholars and thinkers"- you don't need interpreters or the quaran, or the bible for that matter to know the place God want to put you, do you? In this way the interpreters, scholars, thinkers et al. become mere scientists who act only on necessity rather than "Truth". A man who knows the truth have no need or proving it... you see how I think your point of mixing your passion for Islam with science is dangerous? You don't need to be the spokesperson of your God; if he is true, He will speak for you in ways that He knows. If God loves you, that should not be your business. You business is to live your life in the best way possible you know... and that is in Islam culture. All you need is to be a Muslim and practice the culture of Islam, in this way God becomes the matter of your heart, not the matter of whether he is true or not. i would have argued further on "whether GOD exist or not" but I see such arguments are more useless...

Now lets speak about freewill. I said no will is free. You insist the will is free and that God provided this will. Very well. But you have not really explained how free is the will. I said the will is bound to your needs. What you did was agree with me with the difference that you typologised the concept "needs". In you meaning the will operates between choosing way to meet the need. Here you presume there is the will in the way you choose to meet the need i.e. satisfying you sex need by raping or getting married. But did you know that choosing not to satisfy your need (sex through rape or marriage) is still the work of the will? So by connating the name choice you think you already have the will. But I tell you, that before the freewill (choice) there is something greater i.e. the "will (need) to power". This concept validates the fact that the will is foever bound to your needs, and your needs are greater than what you think you need. Mere choice is but a single aspect of the umbrella name power.

Thanx.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:48 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,775,540 times
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Free will is the ability to choose between making the wrong or right decision.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:36 AM
 
6 posts, read 18,092 times
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That sounds more like a moral judgement than "freewill". But in most cases freewill is an advocate of morality! But that does not free it from the initial/first will i.e. "will to power"- freewill, like other kinds of powers (happiness, decision-making capacity, frewill, etc), come second- this we are not aware of because is at the psychocultural level!
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,891 posts, read 4,187,894 times
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Free will, an interesting topic, free will implies that you can do something will out "cause and effect" if cause and effect come into play then there is nothing "free" about it. We all have "free choice" which is different than free will. If free will does exist, then why doesn't a person just "will" themselves from suffering, starvation or any thing that causes discomfort. Then also why is there "unhappy" people, why can't they just "will" themselves to be happy. This is the difference between "free will" and "free choice".
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:31 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,466,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
If free will does exist, then why doesn't a person just "will" themselves from suffering, starvation or any thing that causes discomfort. Then also why is there "unhappy" people, why can't they just "will" themselves to be happy. This is the difference between "free will" and "free choice".
This caught my attention because Dharmic religions base their views on the end of suffering, and actually the idea is to will yourself out of negative states of consciousness.

Some saints and sages have such a developed willpower that they can live without food or sleep, so it is possible, but you need to develop your willpower first.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,891 posts, read 4,187,894 times
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Travelling, I don't know if it is "willpower" or if it is developing your spiritual awareness to the point of overcoming the physical limitations of this existance. They understand that the negative conditions are a form of acceptance, when one doesn't accept these conditions then they can not longer do any harm and one can move above the effect.

You sound like a person who is well learned in the esoteric teachings, I also hold them in high esteem, I feel that they have allot to teach our western culture.
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