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I've read this thread quite thoroughly and I'd like to put my own perspective in on it as I can sort of understand yydanay's point. To me, yydanay is making the hypothesis of "If God exists then..." and in order to do that he is going to have to acknowledge that the Christian God and the Christian Satan are actually real entities -- if for just the sake of argument.
The problem now becomes one of interpretation and the interesting part is that once the non-believer begins to make doctrinal claims about something he is then put in the position of having to have faith that what he is talking about actually exists. Therefore, what he believes the Bible says and how it affects him becomes the same root of problems that believers have -- the inability to agree on what certain Biblical verses, prophecies, and words mean. So, I do find it illogical to try and correct someone on matters of faith as YOU interpret it when many of the people doing it have openly claimed the inability to know God's word or his "thinking". After all, this IS indeed faith we're talking about and not solid, CSI evidence. The interpretation of Biblical verse and scripture is once again the problem -- ironically, even for the non-believer.
And yet, he is ghastly criticized for interpreting something the wrong way because it's deemed WRONG. But, how can we really know that? I fancy to say that we really can't. However, people get in such a tizzy over ones' interpretation of a book that someone doesn't believe in or criticizes. If yydanay were crticizing someone's favorite politician or someone's favorite restaurant in the same manner no one would seemingly bat an eyelash.
But, this is the problem with arguing matters of faith as if you were a believer because you will be pushed to support your statements using Biblical works -- as it should be. So, don't get frustrated or bent out of shape if you're asked to support references and citations from the Bible if you are taking the stance of the believer albeit for the sake of argument.
So, this leaves me to the argument of "bad Design" or the argument that Satan is more powerful. In fact, for me, the idea of Satan lends less credence than the actual existence of God. Satan, in essence, is not really a deity (he's below that - no one wants to call him that) and so he is not quite a deity but he is also quite supernatural; meaning he exists outside of the natural realm. Yet, he can freely flow into and out of the natural and supernatural realms poisoning the minds of people on Earth (many of them simultaneously) and yet he is still not quite a God but not quite a mortal. He's an in-between. Like in my blog, I call him the Celestial Platypus because no one can really describe him that well. Kind of supernatural, but kind of not supernatural. Here's an idea... let's try to capture him when he's in the natural world and perform tests on him. That would invariably prove the existences of both Satan and God and as well as Satan's "designedness".
Let me ask it in another way then. If Satan was not around (as per biblical concepts) would any of us be going to hell? Would there be temptation to disobey God? Granted, he cannot MAKE us do anything, but tell me which person on earth (as per Christian concepts) has not and does not continue to listen to his voice here and there?
Well, I think man would have rebelled whether it wass via temptation in Eden with Adam or Cain or Alpha. In other words, someone was going to fall. I can only assume (that's all we can do on these matters, I guess) that had Satan not rebelled then surely some other entity would have, natural or super natural.
Regarding your last sentence, I totally agree. I think you said almost exactly what I did in the previous post. Sure we listen and are influenced by Satan, I know I'm guilty of that. Well, I should say that I know I have been influenced by some lie, whether it was straight from Satan or not, I do not know. Satan is not omnipresent or omniscient, he's just a ego-manic who wants what isn't his.
Well, I think man would have rebelled whether it wass via temptation in Eden with Adam or Cain or Alpha. In other words, someone was going to fall. I can only assume (that's all we can do on these matters, I guess) that had Satan not rebelled then surely some other entity would have, natural or super natural.
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So the potential would have always been there for disaster then. It would have been one thing if it was a venture without the benefit of foreknowledge, but this is a case where the one who orchestrated the whole thing beforehand knew. This is the part that causes a snag [for some] I suspect.
So the potential would have always been there for disaster then. It would have been one thing if it was a venture without the benefit of foreknowledge, but this is a case where the one who orchestrated the whole thing beforehand knew. This is the part that causes a snag [for some] I suspect.
I guess. But I don't see it that way although I've heard this argument many times before. There was a poster here a long time ago (when I first joined) that we discussed many of these things together. I think it was PrettyHateMachine, but I don't really remember.
Anyway, for me the real kicker is that God could look through time and see me and you and everyone else and the joy of creating us and trying to develop a relationship with us outweighed the hearth ache of the sacrifice of Christ and watching His creation turn and walk away from Him.
John 6:66 or 67 come to mind.....a passage that has often brought tears to my eyes. Those verses are the end of the passage, but I'm sure you've read it.
Anyway, I think you know where I stand and I hope I've better explained my views on this subject. Regardless of whether you've heard it all before or if you even remotely can see where I'm coming from.
You're only looking at humanity's failures. What of the successes? Beautiful works of art, medicinal miracles, scientific wonders. Humans have done remarkable, remarkable things.
You're only looking at humanity's failures. What of the successes? Beautiful works of art, medicinal miracles, scientific wonders. Humans have done remarkable, remarkable things.
Not denying that.
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