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Old 06-23-2008, 07:39 AM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 439,172 times
Reputation: 85

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Quite often Christians point to the seeming order and beauty of the universe as proof of a master designer, one we need to worship and they claim that designer is the one in THEIR holy book. Looking around at the beautiful universe can lend credence to the idea despite the chaos that does happen all across it.

Ok, let's forget about far flung worlds, nebulae and galaxies for a minute and get back down to earth - literally. This is where God's prized creation is. We are told he created us but on the other hand, he created us with full foreknowledge of what was all going to go down. On top of this, we are told he is all wise and all powerful. So look at us now - success???

There seems to be far more order in nature than in the existence of man. Ok, I know some will play the blame game an claim God created everything good and it is man who screwed up everything, but God did not see this coming? He did not see the abject failure a zillion eternities away?

While we're at it, this Satan guy. Why is he still running around the place (well this as per Christian and Muslim theology)? Now if this existence is God's great plan ad design, Satan has outwitted God at just about every turn. When I ask some Christians how was it possible for dying and rising savior gods born to virgin myths appear BEFORE Jesus making it seem as though the Jesus story is just a edited Jewish version of older stories, some tell me it is because Satan (well Lucifer) knew of this plan way back in heaven and tried to thwart it by raising up duplicates to deceive people. Ok then. Chalk one up for Satan. So this means that just about the entire world population BEFORE Jesus is roasting hell about now since they were running about the place worshiping these Satanic duplicates.

A Seventh Day Adventist friend of mine loves to tell me that the world is all screwed up because of sin and it has to run it's course before God steps in to bring it to an end. Huh??? This is the same as other Christians telling me Jesus has yet to return because according to II Peter "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life." Ok, taking Christian reasoning and working with it, on any given day, far more people die "without Christ" than do and with each passing day God allows to go by, more are lost. Where's the 'not willing' here? Then there is the inexplicable story in Revelation 20 where God supposedly will bound Satan for 1,000 years, the earth will know peace but then God will release him again to go back to his old tricks, allowing him to go out and "deceive the four corners of the earth." I think I need a strong drink and I don't even drink.

So I ask, where is this master plan and grand design when it comes to mankind? This mess...who mapped it out? An all-wise, all-knowing deity? Was this the best he could really come up with?
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:48 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 13,246,515 times
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Sure He saw it all coming.

And loved us enough to create us anyway.

I knew I'd have disappointments in my children long before they were born. And I didn't even 'know' them. God has known us since the womb.

Why He loves me, I have no idea. But I'm thankful He does.
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Old 06-23-2008, 05:11 PM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 439,172 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Sure He saw it all coming.
And he still went though with this? For what? So he could "save" a precious few [special] people out of the multiple billions that lived on this earth? It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

Satan gets to exist (working with Christian thinking here) for all ages, here to terrorize man, pit man against God and vice versa and just create disaster to the point where God has to send his son to suffer a brutal death for what could have been avoided or provisioned for BEFORE getting all down and dirty about it. As far as I can tell (again working with Christian reasoning), this was a plan doomed from the start if we take numbers into account. Satan has deceived far more people to hell than God has "saved."
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:15 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 13,246,515 times
Reputation: 3440
Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
And he still went though with this? For what? So he could "save" a precious few [special] people out of the multiple billions that lived on this earth? It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

Satan gets to exist (working with Christian thinking here) for all ages, here to terrorize man, pit man against God and vice versa and just create disaster to the point where God has to send his son to suffer a brutal death for what could have been avoided or provisioned for BEFORE getting all down and dirty about it. As far as I can tell (again working with Christian reasoning), this was a plan doomed from the start if we take numbers into account. Satan has deceived far more people to hell than God has "saved."
Your understanding of Christianity is seriously lacking. I mean seriously.

Satan's here to terrorize man? Pit man against God and vice versa? Planned doom from the start?

And a church or churches somewhere once let you teach? And you've read the Bible 4 or more times?

Wow.

It's no wonder that "It just makes absolutely no sense to me".

It's interesting to me that you quoted the first part of my post and apparently just didn't care for the last part. I'm sure "if you were god", you'd have come up with a much better plan.

We'll.....you're not. Thank THE God.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:27 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 1,990,990 times
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christianity relegion not convince you , is that mean that there is no God ?
there are many relegions in the world , why you (athiest) always depend on christianity to proof your point ?
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:40 AM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,165 posts, read 8,080,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
christianity relegion not convince you , is that mean that there is no God ?
there are many relegions in the world , why you (athiest) always depend on christianity to proof your point ?
What makes you assume that atheists only reject Christianity?

Islam is no better.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:58 AM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 439,172 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Your understanding of Christianity is seriously lacking. I mean seriously.

Satan's here to terrorize man? Pit man against God and vice versa? Planned doom from the start?

And a church or churches somewhere once let you teach? And you've read the Bible 4 or more times?

Wow.

It's no wonder that "It just makes absolutely no sense to me".

It's interesting to me that you quoted the first part of my post and apparently just didn't care for the last part. I'm sure "if you were god", you'd have come up with a much better plan.

We'll.....you're not. Thank THE God.
Alpha please don't insult my intelligence. I know exactly what Christianity teaches and what is believed for the most part. I am using those very beliefs to prove a point. What is Satan here for? Isn't it to pit man against God and vice versa? Isn't he here to terrorize man? If one looks at the product we have now, would you not agree that if God was intending to save his prized creation (man) that considering how many have gone to hell compared to how many has been saved (again, using Christian logic here), the project has not been a near complete failure? It is not me making up these Christian concepts. I am simply working with THEIR concepts to prove a point and I think you know that.

Just think about this for a minute. ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, God locks up Satan for 1,000 years and peace reigns. He releases Satan after the 1,000 years and havoc starts again. If I see something terribly wrong and sadistic about this, It's because I have no understanding of Christianity? It's not my fault it has all kinds of flaws and holes. I'm just pointing them out.

And yes, if I was God, I could have done a better job. Heck, my dog could have done better.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:09 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 13,246,515 times
Reputation: 3440
Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
Alpha please don't insult my intelligence.
Trust me, I'm not having to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
I know exactly what Christianity teaches and what is believed for the most part. I am using those very beliefs to prove a point. What is Satan here for? Isn't it to pit man against God and vice versa? Isn't he here to terrorize man? If one looks at the product we have now, would you not agree that if God was intending to save his prized creation (man) that considering how many have gone to hell compared to how many has been saved (again, using Christian logic here), the project has not been a near complete failure? It is not me making up these Christian concepts. I am simply working with THEIR concepts to prove a point and I think you know that.
Well you can think you know 'exactly' what Christianity teaches for 'the most part' (how do you get 'exactly' and 'the most part' in the same sentence?)...anyway....I digress. Let see "What is Satan here for? Isn't it to pit man against God and vice versa? Isn't he here to terrorize man?"

i)-He is the epitome of rebellion. He's the kinda guy that sits around and thinks about how much God screwed up and how much better he could have done.
ii)-No
iii)-No

(exactly = the most part-----still confused there)

Let's see....if even one person gets saved, then by definition this 'product' can't be a complete failure.

(Alpha, don't insult my intelligence, exactly = the most part and someone saved = complete failure----follow me here, now, yyd?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
Just think about this for a minute. ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, God locks up Satan for 1,000 years and peace reigns. He releases Satan after the 1,000 years and havoc starts again. If I see something terribly wrong and sadistic about this, It's because I have no understanding of Christianity? It's not my fault it has all kinds of flaws and holes. I'm just pointing them out.
Maybe, when you were a believer, you should have studied more of the stuff that was for today instead of getting all head over heels for end times prophecy. It appears you kinda set yourself up for a fall. I know you said somewhere that end times stuff really tripped your trigger. And if you can't get your arms around the book of Job, you really shouldn't be dabbling in Revelations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
And yes, if I was God, I could have done a better job. Heck, my dog could have done better.
K. I won't insult your intelligence.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:24 AM
 
17 posts, read 30,855 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
There seems to be far more order in nature than in the existence of man. Ok, I know some will play the blame game an claim God created everything good and it is man who screwed up everything, but God did not see this coming? He did not see the abject failure a zillion eternities away?

G-d created good and evil. To give man freewill it was necessary for man to have the ability to deviate from G-ds will. The concept of a deviation implies the possibility of opposition. The opposition of G-ds will is the root of evil.

However evil, ultimately, servers a good purpose. It allows man to willfully choose good, to be in G-ds image. Without the freewill provided by evil man would just be a robot. By overcoming the evil in the world man becomes a partner in creation. Rather than receive a handout he earns his place in the World to Come, where all evil is removed.

It’s all just part of the design.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:26 AM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 439,172 times
Reputation: 85
I guess you need to go back and re-read my post and see where I said:

"If one looks at the product we have now, would you not agree that if God was intending to save his prized creation (man) that considering how many have gone to hell compared to how many has been saved (again, using Christian logic here), the project has not been a near complete failure?"

I was careful to say that because I've heard the egotistical statement that if Jesus came to save only ONE person, it was worth it so that a few people will be saved out of billions is a success in their minds. Forgive if it i find that ridiculous.

Also, I said "for the most part" because of the technicality that some Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or some other fringe group may claim they should be numbered in the group. I may not know the theological beliefs of the thousands of different Christian groups, but I know exactly what the fundamentalist wing teaches and its their teachings I am working with.

Finally, where did you see me say that it was end time prophecy that caused me to lose my faith in Christianity? The realization that all of that was a pile of crock was retrospective AFTER I lost faith in it over the silliness of a "good" God who supposedly authored this mess we call an existence. So come again and re-analyze what set me up for this fall, as you say.
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