The Toxic Great Commission (paradise, salvation, grace, disciples)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion!”
Steven Weinberg (1933 - )
A Useless Debate
Whether non-Christians were worse than Christians in sundry past crimes against humanity is actually beside the point to me. Wisdom, Truth and Honor are (or should be) First Pure! (James 3:17). Just because non-Christians are evil does not excuse or elevate the atrocities of the Christian Church. We should be lights to the world, that is, in contrast to it, not just another vile item in the sewer!
The Problem as I see it
There are three toxic Dogmas of Orthodoxy: a) Hell, b) the Great Commission and c) Exclusive, Absolute Truth. By the way, these doctrines can not be supported by the oldest copy of the oldest Gospel, the Sinai Bible Gospel of Mark. Unfortunately, the aforementioned doctrines are tied together at the hip. Countless, well meaning people are routinely duped into contributing to, or participating in, “missions and evangelism” because they simply don’t want anyone to endure the horrors of an eternal hell! Others think they are helping Jesus to return in their life time, thus relieving them of the need to implement pro-active actions to redeem, preserve and husband this world. Still others just need the religious industry or political power. And who doesn’t like being right, that is, being “Appointed by God” as the sole messengers of Absolute Truth!
Without Hell, the Great Commission/Great Condemnation would make little or no sense or at least not invoke such an insensitive and militaristic response. It would also allow a focus away from “hell avoidance” to human relief and voluntary Discipleship. But alas, people are problem solvers and nothing unites us more than a common “enemy” like the unsaved world. So, the business of Religion needs its Dogmas.
Truth is, the Religious Bureaucracy can not tolerate an Unconditionally Loving Creator!
“Oh but”, you say, “the Bible says…” Well, maybe, but you can prove anything with the Bible. Just for a moment, step away from “the Book”. Step away from what you have been taught and tradition. What does your heart tell you? What is God’s Spirit saying?
Just look at the “Fruit”! Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch hunts, aggravated political upheaval and tens of millions of deaths. We have also run slipshod over millennia of cultures without even an apology or a tinge of lament. The only reason that these are rare in the post modern era is that Religion has been removed from government and secular laws generally require some form of “due process” and prohibit such vices. But to those who must obey “god rather than men” , even civil laws are not restraints.
A More Hopeful Future
We can do nothing about the past, but we can work toward a more positive future: one with a more Pure Faith. Hear the words of James 1:27: “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” Clearly, this verse is referring to those in need written by the brother of Jesus and consistent with the life and ministry of Jesus Himself.
We have ample resources! We spend incredible sums of money on Evangelizing, more than on relief or improving the human condition. In fact, almost no relief effort is a “no strings attached”, non-evangelical endeavor. Ministries to the poor, addicted, downtrodden and war torn would be much more effective if we abandoned the toxic elements (Exclusive, Absolute Truth and World Conquest) of evangelism altogether. We would not only have much more money for unfettered ministry to humanity but we would also not require the infrastructure to support all those Evangelists. And I think we would have many more laymen volunteers too.
A Final Question
Finally, I have this question. If spreading the “Gospel Message” is so important, why would God entrust it to hoards of imperfect and physically limited humans? I don’t think God does. In Romans 1:19-20 Paul writes that all people have an undeniable witness of our Creator. Further Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. Why not let God speak to our hearts by His Spirit and let that Spirit lead us in all truth, just like Jesus said it would? Of all the verses in the Gospel of John, these are the most believable to me. There is no better way to commune with the Spirit we call Our Heavenly Father than this.
Choosing to let our Heavenly Father do the evangelizing, leaves us with the less corruptible mission of caring for the less fortunate. Jesus said that ministering to these was directly honoring Him.
How else should we live?
Grace & Peace, John
Last edited by june 7th; 07-12-2009 at 10:11 AM..
Reason: Edit made per member's request
Wow, so seldomly do I read intelligent postings from one of faith, the norm is mis-quotations, or, seriously skewed inferences from misunderstood scripture, or, quotes taken out of context, Thanks, good posting!
Wow, so seldomly do I read intelligent postings from one of faith, the norm is mis-quotations, or, seriously skewed inferences from misunderstood scripture, or, quotes taken out of context, Thanks, good posting!
Instead Jfraysee has rejected the bible entirely to rant against the atrocities of christian men and women. No taking quotes out of context, because the context is troden under feet.
We all have a fragment of God within us to help guide us to our final destination, to the God of Paradise. When we step back and know God through this fragment, we can know more truth than any book can give us. We can know of heavenly things while living on earth. We can become one with God now instead of waiting until the spirit world. No book can lead you to God. They are all just starting points to start us on our path to God. We find truth everywhere and that truth will set us free. Free of the clutches of man and free from the material. God is within you!
Whether non-Christians were worse than Christians in sundry past crimes against humanity is actually beside the point to me. Wisdom, Truth and Honor are (or should be) First Pure! (James 3:17). Just because non-Christians are evil does not excuse or elevate the atrocities of the Christian Church. We should be lights to the world, that is, in contrast to it, not just another vile item in the sewer!
The Problem as I see it
There are three toxic Dogmas of Orthodoxy: a) Hell, b) the Great Commission and c) Exclusive, Absolute Truth. By the way, these doctrines can not be supported by the oldest copy of the oldest Gospel, the Sinai Bible Gospel of Mark. Unfortunately, the aforementioned doctrines are tied together at the hip. Countless, well meaning people are routinely duped into contributing to, or participating in, “missions and evangelism†because they simply don’t want anyone to endure the horrors of an eternal hell! Others think they are helping Jesus to return in their life time, thus relieving them of the need to implement pro-active actions to redeem, preserve and husband this world. Still others just need the religious industry or political power. And who doesn’t like being right, that is, being “Appointed by God†as the sole messengers of Absolute Truth!
Without Hell, the Great Commission/Great Condemnation would make little or no sense or at least not invoke such an insensitive and militaristic response. It would also allow a focus away from “hell avoidance†to human relief and voluntary Discipleship. But alas, people are problem solvers and nothing unites us more than a common “enemy†like the unsaved world. So, the business of Religion needs its Dogmas.
Truth is, the Religious Bureaucracy can not tolerate an Unconditionally Loving Creator!
“Oh butâ€, you say, “the Bible says…†Well, maybe, but you can prove anything with the Bible. Just for a moment, step away from “the Bookâ€. Step of away from what you have been taught and tradition. What does you your heart tell you? What is God’s Spirit saying?
Just look at the “Fruitâ€! Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch hunts, aggravated political upheaval and tens of millions of deaths. We have also run slipshod over millennia of cultures without even an apology or a tinge of lament. The only reason that these are rare in the post modern era is that Religion has been removed from government and secular laws generally require some form of “due process†and prohibit such vices. But to those who must obey “god rather than men†, even civil laws are not restraints.
A More Hopeful Future
We can do nothing about the past, but we can work toward a more positive future: one with a more Pure Faith. Hear the words of James 1:27: “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.†Clearly, this verse is referring to those in need written by the brother of Jesus and consistent with the life and ministry of Jesus Himself.
We have ample resources! We spend incredible sums of money on Evangelizing, more than on relief or improving the human condition. In fact, almost no relief effort is a “no strings attachedâ€, non-evangelical endeavor. Ministries to the poor, addicted, downtrodden and war torn would be much more effective if we abandoned the toxic elements (Exclusive, Absolute Truth and World Conquest) of evangelism altogether. We would not only have much more money for unfettered ministry to humanity but we would also not require the infrastructure to support all those Evangelists. And I think we would have many more laymen volunteers too.
A Final Question
Finally, I have this question. If spreading the “Gospel Message†is so important, why would God entrust it to hoards of imperfect and physically limited humans? I don’t think God does. In Romans 1:19-20 Paul writes that all people have an undeniable witness of our Creator. Further Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. Why not let God speak to our hearts by His Spirit and let that Spirit lead us in all truth, just like Jesus said it would? Of all the verses in the Gospel of John, these are the most believable to me. There is no better way to commune with the Spirit we call Our Heavenly Father than this.
Choosing to let our Heavenly Father do the evangelizing, leaves us with the less corruptible mission of caring for the less fortunate. Jesus said that ministering to these was directly honoring Him.
How else should we live?
Grace & Peace, John
I think you (or maybe those you speak of) misunderstand the Great Commission.
The Great Commission is NOT to evangelize but rather to make disciples. Certainly an element of that IS sharing the gospel but it's helping people grow up too. God certainly does desire to use His people for His purposes and does not wish any of us to just sit back and let Him do the preaching, teaching, and exhortation.....He does that THROUGH His people and the scriptures are clear on that.
I don't really 'know' you as a poster but I do take issue with comments like these:
"There are three toxic Dogmas of Orthodoxy: a) Hell, b) the Great Commission and c) Exclusive, Absolute Truth."
"you can prove anything with the Bible."
"Of all the verses in the Gospel of John, these are the most believable to me."
...and others from your OP as well.
It appears you really want to set aside what God's Word says and follow a 'way that seems right to man', but Christians CAN NOT do that.
The Bible is the standard by which we hold all our thoughts, feelings, and actions to insure that they are in harmony with the Word(as in John 1:1).
Otherwise, we've got a feel good religion where we 'work' our way into salvation by caring for widows and orphans. That service is 'fruit' from our relationship with God but it doesn't 'make' me Christian.
Failing to share what Christ taught about hell, what Christ taught about our commission, and what Christ taught about absolute Truth is setting aside the 'real' Jesus and recreating one that suits what 'seems right' to us.
Wow, so seldomly do I read intelligent postings from one of faith, the norm is mis-quotations, or, seriously skewed inferences from misunderstood scripture, or, quotes taken out of context, Thanks, good posting!
One of faith? But what faith?
Jfraysse, are you a Christian? Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?
Jfraysse, are you a Christian? Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?
I take it you did not read his last three sentences. Or, is this another episode of " Even if you do believe, you don't believe like I do, ergo, something is wrong with you"
Rev said: Yup, Just like Jesus said, the Kingdom is within you!
What? do you have a quote for that?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
