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My question is for Athiests, and to invite the Christians to read/respond with the purpose of understanding eachother a bit more.
It appears that we Christians have a "reputation" of being pretty disliked by Athiests. While I don't wonder why that is, I must admit I am just assuming that there have been encounters that you (Athiests) have had with Christians in which you felt that the Christians thought they were "better than" you or "speaking down" to you, or possibly other circumstances. But that is really just an assumption. I realize there have been very heated debates over the "PROOF OF GOD", as nebulous1 started in his/her thread. I see several instances where Athiests ask Christians to prove it, and then when Christians enter conversation, it is as if Athiests are ready for battle, and quite sarcastic when a Christian speaks how they feel. Most anything a Christian says about their proof of God's existence, or even to offer some type of reason to an Athiest is already rejected by Athiests before it even gets off the ground. And it also seems as though we as Christians, step into the Athiest zone as if we must be prepared for your 'hatred', for lack of a better word, and therefore immediately display a hard edge to our tone, as if to get ready to be mocked or downgraded.
To the Athiests, would you offer an example as to why you do not wish to entertain a conversation with a Christian? Do you feel we are belittling? An insult to your intellegence? Why do you seem to feel we are all "whackos" and some sort of back-patting "Dont worry, God loves you", or "You're all gonna burn" mentalities? Were you subjected to the perverbial 'holy rollers' throughout your life or have bad experiences? Perhaps we can listen to you for once, and learn from your experiences to gain a better perspective? I, for one, am very interested in your thoughts.
I ask that none of you please not be mean or accusatory, but perhaps if we (as Christians) can understand more of where you are coming from, and you can understand more of where we're coming from, some different views can be uncovered, if anything for the purpose of enlightenment & growth.
Thanks in advance to all who contribute. Here's your chance to get it out.
I talk to christians all the time in day to day life. Only the ones who don't feel the need to preach. One of my closest friends is christian.
If your talking about why don't I want to talk to christians who preach, I have to ask, why on earth would I want to talk to one who likes to preach?
Having been brought up as a christian, I have heard it all. My Father was a minister, I went to religious schools, I can gaurantee you I have heard it all. Don't care to hear it again.
I can't decide whether to laugh or scream when one hones in on me and starts blasting me with the message like I have never heard it. I can quote chapter and verse to, doesn't mean I buy a word of it.
AND as I have said, I am not saying ALL christians are like this, only a segment of them.
My question is for Athiests, and to invite the Christians to read/respond with the purpose of understanding eachother a bit more.
It appears that we Christians have a "reputation" of being pretty disliked by Athiests. While I don't wonder why that is, I must admit I am just assuming that there have been encounters that you (Athiests) have had with Christians in which you felt that the Christians thought they were "better than" you or "speaking down" to you, or possibly other circumstances. But that is really just an assumption. I realize there have been very heated debates over the "PROOF OF GOD", as nebulous1 started in his/her thread. I see several instances where Athiests ask Christians to prove it, and then when Christians enter conversation, it is as if Athiests are ready for battle, and quite sarcastic when a Christian speaks how they feel. Most anything a Christian says about their proof of God's existence, or even to offer some type of reason to an Athiest is already rejected by Athiests before it even gets off the ground. And it also seems as though we as Christians, step into the Athiest zone as if we must be prepared for your 'hatred', for lack of a better word, and therefore immediately display a hard edge to our tone, as if to get ready to be mocked or downgraded.
To the Athiests, would you offer an example as to why you do not wish to entertain a conversation with a Christian? Do you feel we are belittling? An insult to your intellegence? Why do you seem to feel we are all "whackos" and some sort of back-patting "Dont worry, God loves you", or "You're all gonna burn" mentalities? Were you subjected to the perverbial 'holy rollers' throughout your life or have bad experiences? Perhaps we can listen to you for once, and learn from your experiences to gain a better perspective? I, for one, am very interested in your thoughts.
I ask that none of you please not be mean or accusatory, but perhaps if we (as Christians) can understand more of where you are coming from, and you can understand more of where we're coming from, some different views can be uncovered, if anything for the purpose of enlightenment & growth.
Thanks in advance to all who contribute. Here's your chance to get it out.
-REFORMED
I think you may be close, but that isn't really the reason that I "dislike" many christians. I don't have a problem with christians so much as I have issues with how they want to run the show. Look at it this way. I am all about gay marriage. But the number one road block stems from religion. I really think that creationism is pretty obsolete, yet many christians would give their left "Insert bodily appendage here" to have it taught in school.
I have felt that sometimes christians are belittling and narrow minded, but I also know that many aren't. For me religion isn't as important as it is to christians, I feel that much of it is obsolete and slows progress. As I mentioned in another thread, I despise how religion allows us to passively tolerate issues that could be solved. IMHO religion and it's (everyone agrees on the color of the shades, no problems, everyone remains the same and no one has conflict) heaven make life cheaper for all of us. In the other thread I said that about 30,000 children usually 5 and under starve to death every day. But in religious terms the body is pretty much just a vessel and is essentially useless. You might refute that, but look at how we live our lives. Do you honestly think we would all be fighting 30 miles of traffic, to go to out trivial job to make our house and car payment if there was no afterlife? Would we really live in our take life for granted fashion if there were no afterlife?
Sure, some might even say that religion teaches us valuable life lessons, but how many christians out there really live biblically, how many christians out there just drive by the guy who is broke down on the road side? How many christians get divorced, cheat on their spouse, screw their "fellow man" out of money?
Societies change. Religion either has to change and stray from where it was born, or become obsolete. in that respect Christianity (most religions) needs to _____ or get off the pot.
I do not have a problem with Christians. I don't have a problem with having discourse and debate with them either. I don't walk around looking at people to see if they have small gold medallions in the shape of a cross so that I know to avoid them nor do I freak out and say "Golly Gee! You're a Christian?! You still believe in that Bronze Age stuff?!"
However, there are indeed several things that do bother me with not only some Christians but theistic religions as well. Naturally, I live and have lived for most of my life in a country and more specifically an area of the country that is overwhelmingly Christian so my experiences are mostly based on that.
Something that really bothers me is when people say to me that I'd be a happier person if I believed in God or that God is essential to believe in to live a happy lifestyle. That's pretty much the point when I lose my patience. To me, it is almost as if saying that my life is a complete wreck, that I will never find happiness, and that I will be plotting which bridge to jump off of in the near future.
Other things that bother me are when people try to educate you on topics that they are unfamiliar with. While this can go for anything (because I do get annoyed at this with any particular topic) I really become perturbed when people try to give me a science lesson on something when they have no idea what they are talking about. Kirk Cameron and Ray unComfort are notorious for this. Sometimes it's like listening to Mr. Rogers tell a tale about how he walked the streets of Compton slappin' his ho's and slangin' crack. If you don't know what you're trying to refute, don't try to refute it. I'm not arrogant enough to expect people to know everything about everything but don't try to pass off something that you clearly don't know about as the inerrant truth because you learned it from a friend of a friend of a friend whose pastor knew a scientist when he was in 7th grade.
Something else that gets to me, as well as almost any Atheist I know, is the "immoral" argument that says I cannot be a good person if I don't believe in God. This is often when I proclaim my Pastafarian faith in The Flying Spaghetti Monster to show that I am indeed a moral person.
Finally, I don't think that Christianity or any other religion should be free from criticism - even if it is justly harsh in some areas. Just because a lot of people worship the Christian God does not mean that I have to think he is this wonderful character that I just so happen to not believe in. I should be allowed to put Christianity and its' God on the same level as politics, restaurant reviews, airline reviews, or any other thing that people rate on scales of 1 to 5. Just because everyone else thinks he's a 5 does not mean that I have to as well. So, don't act overly offended just because I think he's a 1 in the Old Testament and a 2 or 3 in the New Testament. That's my opinion. I'm entitled to it so I'm sorry if I don't find the idea of it to be a very profound and loveable one to me. However, I must also note that just because people believe in something that I rate a 1 or 2 on my "favorite scale" does not mean that I rate the person that as well. Right now I'm not a big fan of George W. Bush but I'm not going to disassociate with people if they're still loyal to him. I rate the individual on their personal merits not what their faith, politics, favorite restaurants or airline are.
P.S.- If you're going to preach to me that you were once an Atheist, you should probably make your story a little better than "I was once an Atheist and then I read the Bible one day and fell on my knees thanking God. You too should read the Bible and ask God to show himself to you." For one, I do not need to will myself to anything. If there's a God who wants to show me he exists, he would know exactly what I'm looking for. Two, you do not need to flaunt your questionable prior Atheism as some sort of street-cred. I'll revert back to Number One so as not to make Number Two look so crappy - no pun intended.
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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Most of the atheists I know do not dislike Christians. Actually, I can't say that I know many atheists...most of my friends who are not Christian tend towards being agnostic. But the point is, they (we) really don't care that much one way or the other. There are some very angry and bitter atheists out there, but I think their feelings are more about themselves or their own personal battles than about the Christian belief. They would be angry and bitter people regardless.
As for myself, I enjoy a conversaion about religion, any religion or philosophy, because it interests me...but when the other person involved in the conversation is a Christian who is uninformed or makes statements regarding science, etc, that he/she is simply parroting, it bothers me. It's difficult to have an exchange of ideas and information when one person is too narrow-minded to listen to the other person...just listen. A conversation should be an exchange of ideas, not a barrage of Bible verses and rehearsed lectures. To understand where a non-Chritian is coming from you would have to listen and be open-minded enough to accept that people are individuals and we are all walking the same path on this earth...we just have slightly differt maps.
Its one thing to discuss historically about religion but I do not debate religion or the lack there of with people in day to day life.
If someone wants to talk about the historical role of the Catholic church in the evolution of the Monarchy of England then thats awesome. Religion has played a very interesting role in the history of the world.
I have heard all the debate that I can stand in my life. It seems to me that when people are debating they are trying to change someones mind. I don't wish to change anyones mind. I feel your conscience should lead you, not a person hammering away at you.
I'm least bothered by any religion at all, i like people for who they are/their personalities, not what/who they believe. Sometime, however, some of the stuff i read here is just way out there for me to understand, and i have to ask question, just out of curiousity. Some things are way to bizzare when comes to religion, and i wonder if some of the people who believe that stuff is really affraid, and have their believes based on fear. I feel actually sad for them.
I don't know why you have an impresison that atheists think Christians are "looking down on us"? I've never had that impression.
Your whole question could be turned around, right?
We atheists are minnows in a sea of religious belief. We've adapted to such an existence and movely freely and inconspicuously among you.
We don't burn down your churches or block access to your houses of worship. We're well aware of the surveys that show how much religious people despise and distrust us.
We're your neighbors. We serve in the military. We pay our taxes and vote. We raise our families to be good, decent citizens. We're Americans. Yet, you believers have been conditioned to look at us as some sort of enemy.
We just don't share your beliefs. Where does your hate come from?
I talk to christians all the time in day to day life. Only the ones who don't feel the need to preach. One of my closest friends is christian.
If your talking about why don't I want to talk to christians who preach, I have to ask, why on earth would I want to talk to one who likes to preach?
Having been brought up as a christian, I have heard it all. My Father was a minister, I went to religious schools, I can gaurantee you I have heard it all. Don't care to hear it again.
I can't decide whether to laugh or scream when one hones in on me and starts blasting me with the message like I have never heard it. I can quote chapter and verse to, doesn't mean I buy a word of it.
AND as I have said, I am not saying ALL christians are like this, only a segment of them.
Thanks for answering Lindsey. It's interesting to hear your thoughts, because I believe you were one of the people that I had misjudged as being 'bitter' by reading one of your posts, so I apologize. I can completely understand how you feel as I too, was born and raised into a lot of religious 'stuff', and as a matter of fact, for years, I didn't want to hear it anymore. As far as your second paragraph, I have also had that same thought. I remember thinking to myself many times, "Oh, and you think I've never heard that one before?" and gotten actually angry for a moment.
I believe more Christians, in general, should look at the person specifically and if they are not aware of their past, they might consider finding out about it, rather than just "quoting scriptures", because we never see who we are quoting to, or what you went through. I've always been a firm believer to know who you're talking to, because one can easily offend someone by making a statement and pushing the person even further away. Also, I am very aware that many of us have (many times) used the Bible as our 'proof' and it is seemingly impossible for you to listen to it if you do not believe in the Bible. It makes sense and yet, many Christians really don't know how to answer any other way. The reason for that though, is because of the fact that Christians have been conditioned to get all of teh toughest answers out of the Bible, much like Scientists get their answers from Science books (for lack of a better example) or Mechanics get their answers from books written by other Mechanics.
Anyway, I greatly appreciate your response and look forward to hearing more from you, whether in this forum or others. And I'm sorry to you for all that you went through. Like I said, I've been there and it's a hard thing to shake when one's past/childhood is involved. Interesting to note that I read that until the age of 8, one receives 80% of their emotional programming. From the age of 8 until one is an adult, they will most likely base their decisions on whatever they told themselves as a child about it. Some may agree, some may not, but I have noticed in my own life that this very relation (child thoughts to adult thoughts) is quite remarkable... the hard thing for me was figuring out how I felt about certain things as a child, and then parallelling (sp?) them to how I react to things as an adult. Interesting thought, hah?
Thanks again, Lindsey.
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If you don't know what you're trying to refute, don't try to refute it. I'm not arrogant enough to expect people to know everything about everything but don't try to pass off something that you clearly don't know about as the inerrant truth because you learned it from a friend of a friend of a friend whose pastor knew a scientist when he was in 7th grade.
