U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-17-2008, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Swamps of Florida
3,412 posts, read 8,668,617 times
Reputation: 1966

Advertisements

I've been reading through R&P boards, and i'm quiet interested of your opinion on the bible as it is.

Bible, (collection of stories) was writen many many years ago. From what i know the very first collection was about 3500 years ago, is it correct? It was oral presentation going from one person to another for generations, until actual knowledge of writing became available. Is there a possibility of "broken phone" type of thing to occur?

Bible is the "word of god", does it mean that god actually have spoken to those who passed the "word" to all other generations? I thought no one has ever saw or spoken to god.

This is the book that laid all the human laws, the sources of "good and evil", sources of justice and human civilization. Those who believe, have been taught to believe promises of "life after death", better place, heaven, and all other beautiful things, as long as they believe. They've been taught from generations to generations, to trust, and never question. Bible is the "word of god", which should make it perfect, it should be so perfect, that any human who read it will understand everything that is written, after all, god is so human like, he would make sure, that humans understood his message with ease. He would want everyone to be perfectly clear about what is expected from every one of us. After all, why make humans and then make laws that humans wont understand?

What do we have today? We have bible studies, we have secret meanings that we interpret at our own discretions, we read sentences that have hidden messages and need explanations. Why would "word of god" be a puzzle? Do you read bible and get what you WANT to get from it? Then who is there to say that what YOU got from it is the same that guys next door did? Wouldn't understanding be equal to all that read? Wouldn't meaning be the same?

Then we have Christ, who came to pay for our sins, he died, to save us. Save us from what? If he died and paid for our sins, why are we still sinners?

And who said that those, who passed "the word" to us, are actually meant what they said, wrote, believed?




Thoughts?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-18-2008, 01:52 AM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,097,330 times
Reputation: 1232
Let me say this first... the following is all IMO, as they are my beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
I've been reading through R&P boards, and i'm quiet interested of your opinion on the bible as it is.

Bible, (collection of stories) was writen many many years ago. From what i know the very first collection was about 3500 years ago, is it correct? It was oral presentation going from one person to another for generations, until actual knowledge of writing became available. Is there a possibility of "broken phone" type of thing to occur?
Bible is a collection of historical accounts, letters, poems, etc. that themselves may contain parables or stories within them. There are differing views on whether the books were passed on orally or in writing. The oldest, most complete written OT volumes are the Dead Sea scrolls, to the best of my knowledge. People debate whether Moses wrote the pentatuch or whether it was a compilation of authors. If it was Moses, as I believe it was, then the debate shifts to how he knew what he wrote - was it all from oral tradition or were there source documents he used? That's more than likely a matter of faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
Bible is the "word of god", does it mean that god actually have spoken to those who passed the "word" to all other generations? I thought no one has ever saw or spoken to god.
No one has seen God, but many have spoken with him. Moses spoke directly with God, for one. You will also get differing views of this. When I say the bible is the word of God, I mean all scripture was God-breathed. God was the author, man was the pen. They wrote what they were guided to write via the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
This is the book that laid all the human laws, the sources of "good and evil", sources of justice and human civilization. Those who believe, have been taught to believe promises of "life after death", better place, heaven, and all other beautiful things, as long as they believe. They've been taught from generations to generations, to trust, and never question.
I disagree with the bolded part above. To my knowledge, every pastor I've ever had or encountered always told us to question and to learn and to take what they hear regarding the scriptures and test it to be sure it is good. When one becomes a Christian, one doesn't check their brains at the door. The bible even tells us to study to show ourselves approved to rightly divide the word of truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
Bible is the "word of god", which should make it perfect, it should be so perfect, that any human who read it will understand everything that is written, after all, god is so human like, he would make sure, that humans understood his message with ease. He would want everyone to be perfectly clear about what is expected from every one of us. After all, why make humans and then make laws that humans wont understand?

What do we have today? We have bible studies, we have secret meanings that we interpret at our own discretions, we read sentences that have hidden messages and need explanations. Why would "word of god" be a puzzle? Do you read bible and get what you WANT to get from it? Then who is there to say that what YOU got from it is the same that guys next door did? Wouldn't understanding be equal to all that read? Wouldn't meaning be the same?
We have bible studies to gain knowledge of what the bible teaches. I know of no secret meanings. There may be double application of scripture, but nothing secret about it. The bible is not a puzzle. It speaks for itself. When you read it, you should read it to get what God is communicating to you, not what you want to impose upon God. This is where humans run into trouble. They impose their will upon God, instead of hearing what God's will is for us. That causes the division and conflicting views. What I hold to is scripture interprets scripture. When a topic is looked at in light of the whole counsel of God, does it stand up, or are there discrepancies that need to be worked out? If the proposed doctrine it is a truth, then there should be no discrepancies with any part of the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
Then we have Christ, who came to pay for our sins, he died, to save us. Save us from what? If he died and paid for our sins, why are we still sinners?
Yes, Jesus came, he died and he rose again as victor over sin and death. That is what those who accept his free gift of salvation are saved from -- sin and death. God's gift of eternal life in heaven with him is free to all who accept it. He created us with free will. He loves us so much, as any parent would, that he allows us to accept or reject his gift. He gives us all the information we need to make that choice.... it is sufficient. However, it is a choice to love. Forcing one to love is not really love at all. God is love, so he won't force anyone to choose him. He woos us, not overwhelms us. We know enough to accept or reject.

Those who accept are no longer sinners, but reborn as saints who are heirs to the throne in God's kingdom. Those who accept have the right and privledge to be called the children of God. We are covered by Jesus' sacrifice and are spotless before God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
And who said that those, who passed "the word" to us, are actually meant what they said, wrote, believed?

Thoughts?
That is where faith comes in to play. You either accept by faith that what the bible claims for itself is true, or you don't. It is by faith one accepts the bible as God's word. Not blind faith, but faith nonetheless. There is evidence available that supports what the bible says is true. It's not what people want, meaning it's not necessarily "slam dunk" evidence, but it is evidence. Remember, God woos, he doesn't force or compell. It's enough evidence that those who choose to accept it can accept it with clear and logical rationale. The same as those who want to reject it can find any number of reasons to do so. Again, God woos us by showing just enough of himself but not too much that we're overwhelmed. It's a matter of faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 07:15 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 13,892,641 times
Reputation: 1573
In Judaism, study was as important as meditation in other traditions. It was a spiritual quest: the word for study, darash, meant ‘to search,’ ‘to go in pursuit of.’ It led not to an intellectual grasp of somebody’s else’s ideas, but to new insight. So rabbinic midrash (‘exegesis’) could go further than the original text, discover what it did not say, and find an entirely fresh interpretation.
Study was also inseparable from action. The truth of Love would only be revealed if you put it into practice in your daily life.

I question the assumption that Jesus had memorized the Torah. Yet, what I find more important is if Jesus believed the bible to be historical truth.
I think that Jesus like any Rabbinic Jew believed that scripture was not a closed book, and revelation was not a historical event that had happened in a distant time. It was renewed every time a Jew confronted the text, opened himself to it, and applied it to his own situation.

So I study the Bible like I would study any other piece of art.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 12:20 PM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,729,234 times
Reputation: 463
There are specific places in the bible that God accually wrote words. The most important is the Ten Commandments. These were written on stone tablets by the finger of God. They are contained in the Ark of Covenant to this day. The seccond physical writting of God is when he wrote on the wall the end of one kings reign and the beginning of the reign Darius the Mede.

Some scholars believe that Gen. 1 was written by God since He is the only one to have direct knowlege of these events. If this is true then the Toleth theory of Genesis is probably true and these writtings would have been passed down through the Generations.

We often err when studying the bible because the bible has a different time line then the uniformitarian time line which many people believe to be correct today. This timeline is the one that is used by evolutionist where the Universe is billions of years old. According to the bible the earth and the Universe has a recent creation (ie. under 10 thousand years). Because of this timeline things are different according to the bible. Man was created intelligent by God on the sixth day of creation. Man was able to talk, walk, reason to the fullest capacity of man at this beginning. The ability to write words was probably also within mans grasp at this time aswell. After the "fall" of man, people have been on a constant downward spiral, spriritually, mentally, genetically, in the length of years allowed to live on this earth, etc...

So, when we look at the bible in light of the history that the bible states. The word of God came in recent times to people who were recently created. This word of God has been passed to Moses who wrote the Pentatuke (first five books of the bible). These books are the history of the Israelites and of all humans. This word has been faithfully transcribed and distributed to every contry and to date in almost every language in the world. The few languages missing I believe are local tribal dialects, where the people have some ability to know neighboring languages and translations of the bible. The bible is the most reproduced book every year and is not included on the best sellers list because it is more produced over any other book. That sounds like the word of God to me just in the last fact alone.

The bible when read is clearly the history of man, the history of marriage, of sin, of redemption. It explains clearly every question humans may have. There is no need for special understanding of the word of God because it is straight forward, to the point and truthful in every detail.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,022 posts, read 918,813 times
Reputation: 101
Default The "Truth" of the bible

The truth of the bible, now there is a set of words that require faith!

Why even investigate if one can not have an inner drive to do so first?

That inner drive is the spirit of God causing us to seek Him out by what ever means possible.

Let’s look back in human history to trace what humanity believed as what it thought god was.
Not speaking about Adam and Eve because that is bible history, and that is only because it was given to the nation of Israel, but speaking about all other people beginning with the cave man.
Each and every human being had and has within a spiritual element that gives the individual the notion that there is something greater than self, a spiritual something, yet there was no information available as to who or what that spiritual unknown was.

Paul the Apostle encountered such a people. Refer: Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Up and until Jesus came the world as Israel had only the prophets and the rest of the world had nothing, absolutely nothing, lost and without hope.

As witnessed by all the gods, that mankind has ever invented as a quest without real and true knowledge of the real God.

Let me interject here that it was not mankind’s fault that they had no knowledge, thereby, innocent of eternal damnation. Need refer: Romans 8:20.

Now, let’s get into the bible story given to Israel but imparted to the rest of the world by reason of Israel’s rejection of the true messenger, the Son of God.

Adam and Eve is the opening explanation of God’s creation and how and why mankind is in a fallen state. I mean all mankind!

In that story we find that there was two distinct trees, one, that gave us knowledge of good and evil, which brought with it death, and another tree, two, the tree of life.

The tree of life was kept from Adam and Eve because that was to be introduced to mankind at a later time in human history as The Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Now we are privileged to know who and what that tree of life is, where as the ones before Jesus, new not.

It said quote: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You see, mankind was destined to experience life in the flesh as well as death as a learning experience because God had made us in His image, to be as gods.
Notice in the verse above “the man is become as one of us”, as gods.

The bible then is the story of God’s works towards all mankind and requires faith to understand what it is within it’s pages that brings life to the human soul.

Jesus came to Israel and was rejected, so Jesus was then made available to the rest of mankind as a free gift.

Jesus being the direct representative of who and what God is, is the tree of life!

All who reach out as the verse states quote “lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: will live forever!

Now, there are many, I say many versions (beliefs) on how to get to heaven, how to live all man made versions, but there is only but one way to the Father and that is through His Son, after all, He is the tree of life that giveth to whom ever freely the gift of life.

If one has a religion and have this basic understanding I just explained, and that religious belief exercises the two commandments left us by Jesus, then I would remain where you are, for there you will find strength in numbers to help you live day by day.

God is love, and if that is exercised by us, then it matters not what religion one is of.

Love has no discrimination, yet it is just. Just in the fact that if things are not of God, then we separate ourselves from those things.

The truth of the bible is within each one of us!

Our faith determines how we are to perceive it and how deep we want to go in studying it.
That is up to the individual and between the individual and God alone.

Peace>>>AJ
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Netherlands
249 posts, read 466,434 times
Reputation: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post

Bible is the "word of god", does it mean that god actually have spoken to those who passed the "word" to all other generations? I thought no one has ever saw or spoken to god.

"The prophets Isaiah & Ezekiel dined with me, and I asked them how they dared so roundly to assert that God spoke to them; and whether they did not think at the time that they would be misunderstood, and so be the cause of imposition.

Isaiah answered: "I saw no God, nor heard any, `in a finite organical perception'; but my senses discovered the infinite in everything, and as I was then persuaded, and remained confirmed, that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God, I cared not for the consequences but wrote.'

Then I asked: `Does a firm persuasion that a thing is so, make it so?

He replied: "All poets believe that it does, and in ages of imagination this firm persuasion moved mountains; but many are not capable of a firm persuasion of anything."

William Blake
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Swamps of Florida
3,412 posts, read 8,668,617 times
Reputation: 1966
After one reads a bible, for the first time, does that one literally believes in everything that written?
Any contradictions that bible has must be explained to that one, reading for the first time. If there is ANYTHING in the bible not understood, then bible isn't a "god's word", as god would make sure it's indeed UNDERSTOOD by all.
Now you're saying that Christ is the only way. Is this the only way for Christians, or is this the only way for ANYONE of any religion? If there is ONE way to ONE god, why so many different believes are present in our time? Why Jews don't think the Christ has come yet and yet Christians believe that he did. So which one it the true one? Just because Bible said he did come, how does it make true for Jews?
The more different believes/religions we have, the more complicated it gets, if Christ is the only way to God, then this should be the ONLY way for ANYONE in this world, regardless of religion, isn't it so? But it doesn't work that way, does it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 06:19 PM
 
Location: God's Country
20,988 posts, read 28,137,895 times
Reputation: 29272
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepsMom View Post
After one reads a bible, for the first time, does that one literally believes in everything that written?
Any contradictions that bible has must be explained to that one, reading for the first time. If there is ANYTHING in the bible not understood, then bible isn't a "god's word", as god would make sure it's indeed UNDERSTOOD by all.
Now you're saying that Christ is the only way. Is this the only way for Christians, or is this the only way for ANYONE of any religion? If there is ONE way to ONE god, why so many different believes are present in our time? Why Jews don't think the Christ has come yet and yet Christians believe that he did. So which one it the true one? Just because Bible said he did come, how does it make true for Jews?
The more different believes/religions we have, the more complicated it gets, if Christ is the only way to God, then this should be the ONLY way for ANYONE in this world, regardless of religion, isn't it so? But it doesn't work that way, does it?
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right".
I believe the Bible is the Word of God, not fables, myths or fairy tales.
I also believe Jesus is the ONLY way for everyone. Satan has blinded so many people with religion, which is man made, he justs loves to confuse people because that keeps them from believing, and that is satans goal.
John 14:26 tells us as Christians we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and He makes all things known to us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 06:40 PM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 391,855 times
Reputation: 85
ILNC the scripture you posted (the one below) has always puzzled me a bit:


"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right".

2 Timothy 3:16

When the writer wrote that, there was no such compilation known as the New Testament so clearly he only meant the books of the Old Testament and even that canon was not exactly made final until A.D 90 (according to some). What then were these "all scripture" was he speaking of? Keep in mind the New Testament books were not yet determined.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2008, 07:12 PM
 
Location: God's Country
20,988 posts, read 28,137,895 times
Reputation: 29272
Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
ILNC the scripture you posted (the one below) has always puzzled me a bit:


"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right".

2 Timothy 3:16

When the writer wrote that, there was no such compilation known as the New Testament so clearly he only meant the books of the Old Testament and even that canon was not exactly made final until A.D 90 (according to some). What then were these "all scripture" was he speaking of? Keep in mind the New Testament books were not yet determined.
I believe it means just what it says, ALL, from Genesis to Revelation.

Last edited by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA; 07-18-2008 at 07:13 PM.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top