Gary Olsen's "Master Path" - anybody familiar? (Buddhist, Muslims, protestant)

[deepcynic]

I did figure that it was a typo, so I applaud your clarification, which follows:

Originally Posted by allan1015

Of course if I thought Gary was harming anyone, sexual issues, mind control, scamming savings accounts from little ole lady's, etc I would not support such operations.

So, when it is proven that MasterPath is a scam, I am sure you will come back here and apologize for promoting and/or defending it.

You will do that, won't you?

[allan1015]

Originally Posted by deepcynic

So, when it is proven that MasterPath is a scam, I am sure you will come back here and apologize for promoting and/or defending it.

You will do that, won't you?

Doubt it. Guess it will depend on what kind of a 'scam' it proves to be. But as I don't find myself promoting MP nor defending MP, so I doubt it. I don't speak for MP, I speak for myself. I put forth my truth, my beliefs. I challenge yours, I push for facts and overall offer a different view. Why would I ever apologize for that?

Also, its a bit contradictory, you have clearly pointed out, as others have, that my every post does more to drive people from MP then any of yours. Why would I apologize for that? If MP is a scam, I expect you and everyone else to be thanking me, for the fine work I've done in supporting your cause. Free beers and even personal donations will be accepted, no sexual favors though


As I said its already not a scam for me. I've gotten more out of it then I can ever put in. My life and world view is changed forever. I have tools that will serve me well beyond any human failing of Sri Gary.

MP's been in place for 20/25 years or so, and yet no court cases, federal, state or civil, no anti-cult activity, no sex scandals, no drug scandals,
all in all an extremely clean record.

The worst even the most informed ex chela has to offer is Gary is a liar, he doesn't care, he plays to much golf, doesn't read his mail, live or insinuate he drinks, makes too much money, takes to many vacations, not a true sat guru, things like that. Fairly mild in the scope of things.



When will you apologize? If nothing is proven in say 3 years, 5 years? Or are you taking the luxury of open ended slander for which you never have to apologize for because your proof is just around the proverbial corner

[allan1015]

To all and anyone accusing me of Lies or purposefully misleading or any such character issues - Prove It. Show us all where I did such. I have never intentionally done so and consider such allegation to be the most serious - Anyone making them should be 'man' enough to stand behind their words.

If you accuse me of making conflicting statements - perhaps I have. Though it would be a case of typos, bad writing, or your misunderstanding. For the sake of clear communication I would appreciate it if you would point the conflicts out. I would love a chance to clear them up. Of course if your intent was to just find a way to dismiss / discredit me, then I guess you wont be interested in clearing matters up.

As to accusations of long, boring, repetitive, uniunteresting, I'm sure there is an element of truth - oh well, I am who I am and my writing skills are the not the best part of me.

[Violet11]

Allan, here's what you said:

(allan1015):
It would be nice if some here would offer some intellectual or thoughtful conversation on matters.

If you want my idea of intellectual or thoughtful conversation, there are many posts that would qualify, but it’s ridiculous and time consuming to go back and cut and paste everything and lay it out for you – it’s still here. Maybe you can go back to the beginning of the thread and read again for yourself - for instance end_of_faith’s posts and rememberingyou’s posts among others. But this time with more objectivity. One example that resonates with me personally:

(end_of_faith):
As I understand the “ancient wisdom”… it is quite simple: the soul is our true essence, it exists within all life, it is God-given, and ultimately we each realize this self. It is the only commodity that does not cost a dime to know or experience.

And last, there are many authors currently producing books that embody this ancient wisdom, and you know what: they write their own books, they acknowledge their sources, they honor many great poets from the past and present, and they are not forming organized paths that present themselves as the ‘only way’ to know the Self or God. And they are available to the public without having to join a group consciousness.

That sums it up for me.

Regarding a couple of your most recent comments, your posts are among the angriest and most confrontational here. Just as you say the rest of us do, you also have bias and prejudice. Bias based on results you've achieved with the help of Master Path over a short 2-3 year period. Though I don't doubt you've experienced some positive results, I am certain it is not Gary Olsen you should thank. My criticisms have not been geared towards Surat Shabd Yoga or the beliefs that surround it. Reading about the concepts/practices, they’re actually similar to my own take on things. That is, of course, if you take out any inference that a self-appointed master is required for a path to God. I think we’re our own masters and God is reachable without a middle man. If you honestly believe you need a megalomaniac like Gary Olsen involved, that’s your prerogative.

Which brings me to ask...do you have a photo of Gary on your desk, in your car, or anywhere in your home? Is his image ever involved with your meditation, or are you strictly meditating on “light and sound”? Lastly, does Gary appear in your dreams? If so, is he as tan in the dream world as in real life?

Do you have any family? A wife? Children? If so, how do they feel about your involvement with “Sri” Gary?

None of those questions raise any flags? Then ask yourself again in a year. And again in two years. That's all I'm saying.

[rememberingyou]

Allan has made up his mind. His investigation of the MasterPath was really within is own mind and that is that! The fact that there are former chelas on this site whose cumulative years on Masterpath total way over 100, does not enter into the picture. When you truly “become” a chela you swallow it all, hook, line and sinker, just as Allan has done. You will fight the windmills to their death and never let any “manumuk” penetrate the false world you have created.
What is so very, very difficult about actually leaving the MasterPath once you have been indoctrinated and self indoctrinated to the degree that Allan is, that after years of this kind of fight with the outside world about how much you are getting from MasterPath, it is then difficult to shift gears and admit all the red flags that you saw along the way; admit to yourself that you have lied to yourself; admit to yourself that on this one, you were wrong. If on top of that, like so many chelas, you have contributed extra money over the years (boy, don’t I wish I had that back) it is even harder…because now you must admit that you were financially reckless as well as spiritually reckless in your generosity.
When chelas do leave the path it is with great sorrow that they were “taken,” and there is an unshakable undercurrent of self-anger for “not seeing it sooner.” Whether or not Allen experiences that remains to be seen. What is so interesting to me is the point that Violet brought up awhile back and I am paraphrasing here: “if you are so enamored of MasterPath and Gary Olsen, what are you doing spending so much time on this forum? Why aren’t you immersing yourself in the works and in practice?” It seems like defending MasterPath has become your “practice,” Allan. It is within that defense that you look and act like a cult member. You ask for evidence and people point out your past posts, but you cannot see it about yourself. That alone tells me you have drunk the kool-aid.
MasterPath not harmful? You Allen and so many others like you only see the man on the stage. You only read the “works.” You do not see and probably will not see exactly how Gary and Joy live; you have not heard how they talk about their chelas; you do not know anything except what you see on that stage. And just like in the wizard of Oz, there is a man behind the curtain. Your assumptions that DeepCynic has no evidence or cause is laughable. You do not know what he does about Olsen. You assumptions that EndofFaith is—what you insultingly called her “acting like a love spurned”—all tell me that you will never change your mind. Okay, have at it. Enjoy the ride. And when you hear Gary say things like “George Bush is a visionary and I whisper in his ear,” will it send up a red flag or will you cling to your belief that all is good and honorable in MasterPath? If you happen to hear Joy gossip about another chela, and oh does she love to gossip about the chelas, will you pretend you didn’t hear? No harm, right? It is all a spiritual lesson, right? Well the biggest spiritual lesson of MasterPath is to get the hell out of there and understand what Violet has been saying, “you do not need an intermediary.” If you love Spirit, love God with all your heart Allan, that path and that journey awaits you inside yourself. And getting on a plane to go sit with Gary Olsen is just a waste of time and money.
I admit, Gary has some charisma. Unfortunately so many of us mistook that as wisdom. And it is easy to mistake relinquishing you personal power, which you have already done, as surrender. But I digress. I can see that you have made up your mind. And I am uncertain why you continue to hurl names at all of us—Somebody said recently to you—“run, get out of there.” That was not bias or prejudice, that was good advice.
Allan, I know you are set in your decision and I wish you well. And I truly hope that you do not have to go through what so many former members have gone through in trying to reclaim their lives and heal the lies and betrayal of MasterPath. May you be well and may you know peace in your heart.

[allan1015]

Originally Posted by Violet11

If you want my idea of intellectual or thoughtful conversation,

Appreciate the attempt to clear this up, it jumps out to me that you missed the point of that post you quoted.

To be clear, I was lamenting on conversations, not posts per se that were intellectual or thoughtful. The context of the point was about conversation, back and forth kida conversation between 'equals', with out being told I was brain dead, lieing, or mentally ill as you insinuated, that kind of thing. Mutual respect, kind of stuff, an honest, open exchange of ideas.

So to the extent you are claiming I said there were no posts that were intellectual or thoughtful in this entire thread, you are not correctly characterizing my point, nor do I believe that is true.

If you still don't understand what I mean by a thoughtful conversation versus a thoughtful post/point. I'm not sure I can explain it any better.

POST <> Conversation

--Regarding a couple of your most recent comments, your posts are among the angriest and most confrontational here.

If you say so. I wasn't angry at all, but I was pretty in your face -

--Just as you say the rest of us do, you also have bias and prejudice.

Sure, who doesn't. Not sure general statements about the common traits of all humans is getting us anywhere.

The difference of course between me saying deepcynic has prejudices, which we all do, and saying deepcynic is very prejudiced in his response, discussions. posts. We all make judgements, every day, perhaps every minute, but thats different then me saying someone is judgmental.

--I am certain it is not Gary Olsen you should thank.

How are you certain? What absolute evidence do you have to be certain?
How certain are you? very certain, absolutely certain, without a shadow certain? It may be your opinion and your belief even, but certain?

How do you know that Sri Gary, even if he is nothing but an ordinary man, hasn't touched me on some other level? Do you believe we exists on multiple planes/levels of being? Are you certain that Gary didn't affect/interact with 'me' in some other way? Do you doubt it happen that way, or are you certain?


--My criticisms have not been geared towards Surat Shabd Yoga or the beliefs that surround it.

I'm pretty sure that some where in the neighborhood of 90% the the critiques directed at MP teachings and practices are non specific to MP.

Are you saying that I am wrong when I point out your critique is not specific to MP? Would you care to back that up?

I understand you may not have realized you, and many others, where critiquing something larger then MP, but that doesn't change the truth of the fact. I am at least heartened that someone actually cares to note there is a an overlap and difference.

--That is, of course, if you take out any inference that a self-appointed master is required for a path to God.

There is no such statement, the bulk of the generic teachings speak of a need for a 'living' master as I understand it. The 'need' is mostly for the inner master, the master working inside. The inner master is a way to represent consciousness, soul, shabda, god and in the end, the inner master is really 'me' the true self. But you do start with a living master, who on the outer form is a teacher, guide, and a tool.

Anyway I digress, the point is that I am not aware of core L&S speaking to how a sat guru is 'appointed' and that it needs a 'linage' in human form.

I'm going to digress again, skip this if you wish, the whole term 'self-appointed' isn't even technically accurate. The only one that can 'appoint' a Sat Guru is God. Think of it this way - God and Soul-X have a discussion - "I'd like to have you go to earth and help a few candidates get to their next stage of development." Soul-X agrees, incarnates in a body as Judy Butty, has some period of childhood, teenage angst, young women hood, etc, but somewhere along the line wakes up to her calling. Does this make them self-appointed? Not to me.

As I understand your view it is to say God has some contract and policy that he only puts teachers on earth who are first students of, then recognized by, a previous teacher.

I simply don't agree, I don't know of any such rules or assume that God would have such. What makes you more right then me? In fact yoru way is not much different then some dude saying a women cant be a Sat Guru, cause God doesn't work that way.


--I think we’re our own masters and God is reachable without a middle man.

Thats fine, I understand that view, no problems with it. But you do agree there is no more validity for it then the one that says an outer teacher and an inner master is required. Your belief doesn't give you the right to say I am mentally ill, that Sat Guru's are megalomaniacs, or that all L&S beliefs are stupid, right?


---do you have a photo of Gary on your desk, in your car, or anywhere in your home?

Nope.

--Is his image ever involved with your meditation, or are you strictly meditating on “light and sound”?

Nope. That practice is an optional one. Its a tool.

--- does Gary appear in your dreams?

Nope

--- Do you have any family? A wife? Children? If so, how do they feel about your involvement with “Sri” Gary?

Yep, 35 years married. 21 year old daughter still at home but about to leave for her junior year in college. 29 year old son in Boston.

They haven't expressed any direct feelings about my various spiritual endevours over the years. I've always kept my practices and to a large degree my beliefs ot myself. As they got older they came to me with questions, but I let them form their own opinions.


-- None of those questions raise any flags? Then ask yourself again in a year.

Which ones? are you referring to the image/picture ones, or all of them?
Why should it concern me if I have a family or kids?

As to the image issue, I understand it completely. I had a very visceral reaction the first time I say a picture in a MP book. I once walked away from TM once when I was being given a tour and was a suggested I venerate to a picture of maharishi on an alter. So for MP over the past 4 years of study and investigation I did my homework, I listened to how Sri Gary discussed the picture(s), what his suggestions where on using it, etc. Basically what I've heard so far is that its both a visulaization and focusing tool, option and useful to some folks and doesn't mean much to others. It not forced, required, there is no veneration, kind of thing. Some chelas have told me they like it around because when they glance at it , they use it as a trigger to remember to center themselves, focus, put some attention on inner landscape.

I'm sure that is more then you want to know, but the point was that while I understand and share your trepidation over the image thing, study, examination of facts etc have me just accepting it and if some chelas find it useful - hey what ever works.

And hey, perhaps someday I will find myself in so much gratitude for all that I learned from MP teachings, thankful to Sri Gary for putting the material out their, the organization etc, I might put a picture in my wallet as well. This is why some chelas have told me they have a picture, just so friggen thankful for how MP has turned their life around.

Anyway, thanks for the questions and dialog, hope I have answered them clearly.

[Violet11]

allan1015:

Okay, I understand you recognize there is intellect and thoughtfulness in the others here. But the quote from end_of_faith that I included in my answer to you still exemplifies the crux of this whole argument. So I'm glad I reposted it anyway.

None of my criticisms were ever directed at the overall concepts of Light and Sound, Surat Shabda Yoga, etc. or that they were in any way stupid. On the contrary. I said from what I've read, on the surface, there seem to be several parallels there with my own beliefs. Yes, I'm dubious about the idea of initiations, but it depends on what form it takes and by whom, whether it's forced on someone or denied arbitrarily by the initiator. But my MAIN problem with MP or any of these spiritual practices is, AGAIN, the idea that a self-appointed "master" is in any way needed. And just as I can't prove Gary is self-appointed, you can't prove God appointed him through some Soul-X conversation like the example you give. I don't say Gary is a megalomaniac just because he claims to be a Sat Guru. That's only one part. The rest of the reasons I use that term can be found in all the previous posts by former Master Path members. I will refer you back to what they said.

And for the record, Allan, I have read all posts with objectivity and even forced myself to consider the possibility that Gary is worthy of leading others. But it's not only the former Master Path members, detractors or even my own experience that influences my point of view. It's intuition. It's the gut feeling I got when I met his followers, read his materials, saw his picture and watched his videos online. Alarms went off. Intuition is an invaluable tool. But did I paint my own "big picture" from intuition only? No, the big picture is painted by everyone, including you, Gary, his former followers, his current followers, and the reading materials from MP.

When you started the path, did you already know about the Fargo cult fiasco or what Rick Ross and other experts have concluded about MP? Did you already know about Gary's verbatim use of Eckankar, etc.? Did you approach Master Path knowing that Gary had a criminal past? Had you already read his former followers' critiques and experiences with him? Or did you discover those things AFTER studying MP? If you knew all of those things prior to studying Master Path, so be it. Maybe you have a higher threshold for creepy. But if you only learned those things AFTER, then your interpretation of the big picture is surely going to be skewed by your desire to continue on the path. Just as you think our interpretations of the big picture are skewed in our own directions.

The posts of the former Master Path members here ring true because they have many more years of experience and have had much more direct contact with Gary than you have. Rememberingyou and others have graciously and very eloquently offered their insights, and how and why they came to their conclusions about MP. But as rememberingyou said, you will not see it until you see it. The best of luck to you.

[AxisMundi]

Originally Posted by allan1015

Your not making sense.
What is this a proof of?

As previously stated I didn't comment on Lily Dale cause I don't know anything about it, nor care much to. Im not claiming I know about it, so your not making sense ot me.

Anyone who has been in the circles for any length of time knows about Lilly Dale. I've talked to some fellow Gaels in Ireland who know about it, who ahve enver even BEEN to the US. Everyone at Burning Man and Starwood that I've talked to know about it.

Did you or did you not claim...

Oh and I can count a few healers, card readers and psychics as friends. Very close friends and people I love in fact. I also own and manage websites for light workers and other types. The point is I know well of the different thoughts on payments, donations, etc. We are not talking apples and oranges....

In response to my post noting my experience in the Circles, and my self-appointed task to disprove charletons?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...miliar-42.html

Again, anyone in the Circles for any length of time KNOWS about Lily Dale, touted as "the oldest spiritual community", which sets atop a Nexus and jambed packed with spirits from the old TB hospital across the lake.

If you don't even know about Lily Dale, don't bother trying to denigerate MY expeience in Spiritual matters, or my abilities in finding frauds and charletons.

[Shuffler]

Allan:

Are you 100% open in telling your family about this 'path' you're on? (Y/N)

Have you had any involvement in the recruitment/mentoring of 'seekers' or 'junior chelas' (I assume there is a pecking order based on how many initiations one has taken)? (Y/N)

What is the endgame? At what point is the journey complete? Or is the point to keep you 'on the path' (aka paying money) for as long as possible?

How many have completed the journey and left the path with Gary's blessing? We're talking 25yrs or so here, and most of you should want to know what to expect, right?

When Gary dies, then what?

[allan1015]

rememebringyou, thanks for the post and insights.

A problem with your 'model' is that it doesn't leave any room for discussion. Its cleverly set up so that any disagreement with you is simply pointed to as a reaction of a brainwashed mind.

Its seems basically like this:
A sign of perverted mind is that it will disagree with anyone saying it is a perverted mind.

So if I say: - Rememberinyou has a perverted mind,
if you try and deny that, you'll just prove my point.

---His [Allan's] investigation of the MasterPath was really within is own mind and that is that!

Can you clarify how you know what the extend of my investigation over the past 4 years has been? You sound so authoritative over something I don't think you know **** about, putting a blunt edge on it.

--The fact that there are former chelas on this site whose cumulative years on Masterpath total way over 100, does not enter into the picture.

It doesn't? How do you know what I have factored in and not? Or is your assumption that it couldn't be possible for a rational mind to read these post by former chelas and not be convinced?

I've read a number of post by former chelas, considered all that I have read and not come away with enough to tell me to stop doing what I am doing. Could it be possible that MP doesn't work for some folks and works well for others? Might it be that simple why they have different experiences then I do?

A big point in these has been Gary's behavior. Some consider he has done things unfitting in their minds. Could it be you simply have different believes about whats proper behavior for a 'master', then I do? Does that make me a brainwashed, mentally ill person, for seeing thinsg differently then you?

As example, what does it matter if Gary says to someone that Chela's are worms? It's true isn't it?
From my perspective part of Sri Garys job is to remind me what I worm I am.

See for me, from my perspective, when viewed from the perspective that we are humans, and only that, such a statement sounds ugly and unloving, and is.

However, when I take the perspective that we are beings of at least two identities. The human form, and the soul, then slapping my ego around (metaphorically speaking), pointing out the limitations of ego, is much less of an issue, especially if such slapping intended to help me realize Soul.

From this perspective I don't take immediate judgement on Sri Gary for talking 'badly' about a chela. And who is he insulting anyway? - some transitory persona that is a result of bio-chemistry, nerolectronics, and cultural conditioning. Has he insulted the true form, soul? Can anything he says as Sri Gary actually harm, demean or insult a soul?

Now you can take my line of reasoning as bullcrap and the product of a mind trying to defend MP at any cost. However the fact of the matter is I had this view long before MP based on many other spiritual principles.

In the end the truth is that my belief system is simply different then yours. How is you, or others, labeling me as mentally ill is anything but simple bigotry because I don't believe the same as you?

Oh, and should I factor in the fact that there are a lot more chelas with say 10,000 years or more combined experience? I call your 100 years and raise it 10,000


---When you truly “become” a chela you swallow it all, hook, line and sinker, just as Allan has done.

Have I? Have I just swallowed it or am I still digesting and internalyzing some of it. Is this what you did? took it all in, accepted everything? did you question anything?

---You will fight the windmills to their death and never let any “manumuk” penetrate the false world you have created.,

Ok, were back to that game you play. If I argue your point, its just makes your point.

If you feel up to having a discussion on any point/issue please let me know.

If you are correct though, it should be easy for you to prove your point. You should be able to point out some issue, in which I will quickly run into a wall and run away from (run away could mean I get defensive, change subject etc)

Of course if you just want to play these mind games, thats fine, you've really done nothing but made some circular argument.

Please note, your the one calling 'my' beliefs false, my world false, my mind distorted.

What is so very, very difficult about actually leaving the MasterPath once you have been indoctrinated and self indoctrinated to the degree that Allan is, that after years of this kind of figve, ht with the outside world about how much you are getting from MasterPath, it is then difficult to shift gears and admit all the red flags that you saw along the way; admit to yourself that you have lied to yourself; admit to yourself that on this one, you were wrong.

More self fulfulling argument. It may even be true thats some people have this issue. Doesn't mean all people do.

The fact is that you don''t know me from adam now do you. Ive never had a problem being 'wrong' - or changing gears, admitting mistakes,etc. I'm not that invested being right. I push my points really hard, not from a need to be right, which is what most people assume, but simply to see where the edges are, to see how strong your case is. The fact of the matter is that I am more known as a devils advocate that can argue many points.

My world wont shatter if I decide to move on from MP, it will be a learning experience, Ill take what I need, leave the rest.

I have done more homework then most other chelas I know. No regrets, and only mistake if I don't learn from it all.

Why aren’t you immersing yourself in the works and in practice?”

I am. I am right now. Simmraning like a mofo. Connected. Since when is practice isolated from my day? I am sometime immersed and practicing when I drive, eat, walk my dog. Shabd is Life , Life is Shabd. In what part of this discussion am I not to find Gods hand? Is God over there and not here? What doesn't offer an opportunity for master recognition?

--It is within that defense that you look and act like a cult member.

So let me see, you (the collective you) believe MP is a cult.
I spend more time then you feel is appropriate in challenging your views, therefore it proves MP is a cult?

I guess your point is that only a cult follower, a true believer, would be as energetic as I am? OR said another way - A member of a real spiritual movement would be meeker, less wordy, less aggressive? Is that how you see it?

I suggest you that need to open your mind to the idea that your conclusions are based on limited assumption of me, my intent, etc.

---You ask for evidence and people point out your past posts, but you cannot see it about yourself. That alone tells me you have drunk the kool-aid

I see that, but the fault is yours. By which I mean it is You that cant get your head around the idea that I am not defending MP, and also the idea that this too is practice. I still get my hour in the morning in.

From my perspective, its you that has the limited viewpoint. You cant see any other answer other then I am deluded and brainwashed and hence MP is a cult.



In any case, the concept that 'practice' is ONLY sitting alone in a corner looking at my belly button is an invalid limitation, imho. Its not part of MP teachings at all.

-- And just like in the wizard of Oz, there is a man behind the curtain.

Of course there is. but you of course assume that I am some ignorant waife who isn't fully aware of this. Dig deeper, what you might find, if you can open your eyes is that I am way ahead of you.

I have spent lots to time, years and years and way befor MP wondering what it means to be 'enlightened' in human form. Will such a person be obvious? will they have warts and flaws or be perfect and seem like saints to all observers? Or can an enlightened soul, look like a jerk to us lowley ones?

Is it possible we have different views of what Sat Guru should look, taste, smell and behave like?

---Your assumptions that DeepCynic has no evidence or cause is laughable. You do not know what he does about Olsen.

Its not an assumption on my part, its based on observed facts. He has shown no evidence of anything, just a few smattering of accusations against the wall. I dont know what he knows, I can only 'make judgments' on what he has shown. He has shown himself to be a judgmental bigot. What can I say, you want to give him credit for stuff in his head, or spoken only in secret chats? Thats your call, not mine. I find it laughable that you want me to assume he knows more then he says.

---You assumptions that EndofFaith is—what you insultingly called her “acting like a love spurned”—all tell me that you will never change your mind.

She is, the fact that you cant see it simply tells me you are blinded to your own views.


--And when you hear Gary say things like “George Bush is a visionary and I whisper in his ear,” will it send up a red flag or will you cling to your belief that all is good and honorable in MasterPath?

RedFlag, but Ill consider the entire context. Is it on a tape?

--If you happen to hear Joy gossip about another chela, and oh does she love to gossip about the chelas, will you pretend you didn’t hear?

Not sure, context issue of politeness and my business.
Joy is not my master/guru. I don't know what level she is supposed to be at, but so you know I don't give other chelas respect and points just because they have more years. Not on personal behavior issues, I might listen better on teaching issues.

Look you should phrase your question differently. First, what would I do if I heard any chela speaking gossip about another chela?

Probably nothing, not if I overheard it. I'm not the purity police. If I was with a group and someone did it, Id either say something or move away, depending on context, about the same as I would in any group.

So why would I treat Joy differently? I mean she at some levels isn't anything more then another chela. I don't take instruction from her, shes not my boss, master, etc. Sri Gary has recently made it very clear, there is only one master, one teacher. period.

On the other hand, she is married to Gary, she is supposed to represent MP, well others may look to her to represent MP. And If I thought she set a bad example in that regard, and if I was on some purity kick at the moment, I'd probably just stare at her and she would know I overheard her. Joy is a peer.

If you think at all that I would have an issue, context and social etiquette allowing, have an issue calling her out on it, just because she is married to Sri Gary, well you don't know me.

--No harm, right? It is all a spiritual lesson, right?

Yes and no.
It seems you mistake me for some new age idiot who uses those kinds of axioms as justifications for lack or a moral compass. Your mistake.

---“you do not need an intermediary.”

You simply don't know that for a fact, its is just another belief. It is nothing more then a matter of faith for you.

Right now I desire to try it another way. Its an experiment. I've got a million or so more lifes to play with.

Is it not you labeling me as branwashed (in so many words) and she calling me mentally ill, simply because I have a different belief system then yours.

yet you you have absolutely nothing more then your belief and faith in your truth to support your argument. What hubris.

---If you love Spirit, love God with all your heart Allan, that path and that journey awaits you inside yourself.

Which is Exactly where I AM going with MP. Inside myself.
if you were on MP you must have missed some lecture if you believe differently? Of course I'm happy to hear you correct my understanding I am always open for correction.

---And getting on a plane to go sit with Gary Olsen is just a waste of time and money.

Thats fine. Its a very small sum of money in my opinion. Its not harmful or destructive now is it. You couldn't fill out one anti-cult red flag list and support that conclusion with anything you've said do far.

--I admit, Gary has some charisma. Unfortunately so many of us mistook that as wisdom.

Thats fine, Im not you, Im not a groupy.

I much prefer the audio tapes, his charisma is lessoned there, he sounds like a hillbilly, often. But there is a wisdom there, imho. If not wisdom, lets just say there is enough for me to learn from. Which is what is important to me, what Im learning, getting from it.

---And it is easy to mistake relinquishing you personal power, which you have already done,

Have I, please explain?? As specifically as you can.

--And I am uncertain why you continue to hurl names at all of us

Thats pretty much the pot calling the kettle black. Though perhaps not with you specifically.

---Allan, I know you are set in your decision and I wish you well. And I truly hope that you do not have to go through what so many former members have gone through in trying to reclaim their lives and heal the lies and betrayal of MasterPath. May you be well and may you know peace in your heart.

Thanks. So far Ive already started reclaiming my life and healed a great deal.

Could it be possible that MP doesn't work for some folks and works well for others? Or are you of the mind set that if it doesn't work for everyone its not valid?