Gary Olsen's "Master Path" - anybody familiar? (prophets, nun, philosopher)

[rememberingyou]

Originally Posted by Shuffler

Allan:

Are you 100% open in telling your family about this 'path' you're on? (Y/N)

Have you had any involvement in the recruitment/mentoring of 'seekers' or 'junior chelas' (I assume there is a pecking order based on how many initiations one has taken)? (Y/N)

What is the endgame? At what point is the journey complete? Or is the point to keep you 'on the path' (aka paying money) for as long as possible?

How many have completed the journey and left the path with Gary's blessing? We're talking 25yrs or so here, and most of you should want to know what to expect, right?

When Gary dies, then what?

Shuffler, I know that you addressed your question to Allan, and I would also like to take a shot at the answers based on being a former chela who spent more than a decade on MP.

1. Gary lets you know that your family is probably not evolved enough to understand why you are with the Master. This has been repeated at many seminars over the years. The master comes before your family. You should love the master more than anyone else, including your family.

2. Recruitment is called "One on Oneing." There are brochures and materials to help you do this and bring others onto the path. When I was on the path there were a group of Vahanas whose purpose was to conduct "seeker meetings" and help educate people about what a wonderful thing MP is. Also there have been several seminars over the years that talked about how to be a better "One on One-er."

3. There is a MP heirarchy based on initiation level. From the 5th initiation onward, the chela is encouraged to "become the eyes and ears of the master." In other words, spy upon your fellow chelas and report any inconsistancies with Gary's message to the office.

When chelas grow concerned that they are not having certain experiences that are promised on the path, they are "spiritually redirected" by a staff member, who are always higher initiates, and told that certain experiences won't come until a higher initiation is reached. In other words the stick that holds the carrot keeps getting longer and longer.

4. I have never known anyone but Gary to reach the endgame [sic], which is why Gary's theology works so well for Gary but not for others. Yes, you will pay dues until you die. And there have been several mentions in seminars over the years as to "how" to leave your money or property to MP should you die.

I do not know of any former chela who upon leaving path received anything but ill will and nasty gossip from Gary and Joy Olsen. In a very recent seminar, Gary told his flock that they should never be friends with someone who has left the path. So, when one leaves the path after a long period of time they are shunned by the social structure and the guru to whom they have devoted time, money and trust. However, Gary does say in his seeker meetings that if MP is not your thing, the master will help you find your true path. That soft sell hardens considerably if you leave after being on the path for awhile. Gary takes it as a personal afront to his ego!

5. Finally, what happens when Gary dies--there will most likely and unfortunately be another to take his place. When I was on MP no successor had been chosen...Maybe the higher intitates will battle it out, each claiming to have received the master's message that it's them!

The greatest challenge for chelas who leave MP is reclaiming life so that they have the confidence to create friendships beyond what they had with the chelas who now shun them; finding ways to re-connect with family members who may have been pushed aside for years because of one's invovement with the path; over-coming the self-anger for being a part of such a group; and basically learning how to be a member of a world community again that does not ask for devotion or money.

Violet said it so well in one of her posts when she said "just love life." That is really the reclamation story: embracing and learning to just love life and recognizing that you don't need a guru to do that. Thank you Violet for something so profound that it is simple.

Hope I didn't overstep my bounds by answering the question that you posed to Allan from my point-of-view. Hopefully Allan will still share his point of view too. Thank you Shuffler for starting this thread, for opening a venue for those of us who have experienced MP as a cult and for opening a venue to outsiders who can say what their observations are...I desire to have Gary Olsen exposed for what he is.

[Shuffler]

rememberingyou,

Was there a 'compelling event' that woke you up to the fact that things were not as they seemed?

Was it an outside influence that was the catalyst, or did you find it within yourself?

[rememberingyou]

There were things that I ignored for awhile, but the singular event that stands out in my mind is that I was at a fellow chela's house with Joy Olsen. And throughout the day I listened to Joy berate this chela in both subtle and not so subtle ways. That was a turning point for me. I found that I could no longer justify that this was some spiritual experience that I was having. Joy was just plain mean to that chela. And I don't care how spiritually advanced one is, there is no excuse for treating other human beings in the harsh and horrible manner that I witnessed. Truth is I had seen this type of behavior from "higher initiates" before, but like a good little chela I told myself that I could not possibly understand the choreography that the master had in store for me. That day though, something in me snapped and I never went to another meeting after that. There were phone calls of course: Gary's threats about all the bad things that would happen to me if I left; his insistance that my leaving meant that I could not possibly want spirit. And you know what Suffler, in spite of the fear that I felt, when I actually knew that I really was leaving; when the letter of resignation, so to speak, had been written and sent, I felt the most amazing sense of relief and liberation-- and I started down the road of healing and learning to love life again. Now I share my cautionary tale where and when I can in hopes that it may help someone else either leave MP or never sign up in the first place!

[Shuffler]

Hi Allan, to address your last reply to me....

Gary did attend Eck when younger, though I've no data on how many years or how long? Do you?

No I don't, but as a paying member, you and others should have the mental fortitude to ask this question of him.

MP and Eck are derived from another general body of work, Sant Shabd Yoga, which has many forms and 'derivatives' - but you know all this - wonder why you dont mention it?

Wasn't aware of this...I learn something new every day on this thread - thanks!

So are all religions thata re dervied from other, older teachinsg called ripoffs?
I guess you would look a few millions Sikh's in the eye and tell them they ripped off Sant Sahbd Yoga ?

I don't know any Sikhs, but through the wonders of technology, perhaps some of them are following this thread and will chime in one day...?

Protestants ripped off Christianity, Christians ripped of Jews, Islam ripped of both of those? Is that how you define ripped off? Or was that just a useful negative way to make your point?

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Let me ask, if MP was a ripoff of Eck, don't you think there would be lawsuits? MP would be stealing revenue and $ from Eck, don't you think that over 25 years or so there would be some indications from Eck they felt ripped off?

Lawsuits bring exposure, so therefore they don't pursue them...just imagine the scrutiny that would come from outside the flock, as well as from within...suddenly the good shepherd is losing control of his flock as they begin to question the validity of the very thing they've poured their money and soul into.

There must be plenty of willing souls in the world to share between Eck and MP...heck, maybe Harry and Gary golf together and compare notes and ideas, like so many CEOs do every day.

I lost my God guidebook for Sat Gurus, can you point out the chapter that says there must be a linage and proof?
Did Buddha have a linages? Was Jesus certified? I guess John the Baptist sorta did that, oh wait who certified John?

If I were a paying customer shelling out hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for this self-proclaimed 'guru' and his cheapo materials, you're "Gary-damned" right I'd want PROOF...and I'd have the intestinal fortitude to call him out on it.

I understand if you want to offer 'linage' or certification as an argument for assessing a true teacher, but it is a standard thats pretty subjective and history is replete with good teachers and saints that didn't come with credentials as you require.

So what defines a 'good teacher' and 'saint' in your mind? To me, being open and forthcoming with clear, concise answers when questioned by your students would be a start, but that would require actually inviting your students to question your validity...

Spirituality is Not for Profit?
Perhaps, oh can you point me to one Spiritual/Religious undertaking, one that you might follow, seems legit to you, that doesn't have money involved?

I walk alone and answer to nobody. When it's all over I'll be dust in the wind and know that my time on this rock is really insignificant in the big picture, so I'm just enjoying my life experiences here and now. I don't need the crutch of a belief system or a false prophet to get me through my days. Religion = Fear of Death.

Organized religion has become a business in this modern world and to ME, it is wrong, BUT I understand those funds typically pay for churches, utilities, employee salaries, and charitable endeavors.

With all that cash lying around, why has MP not pursued any charitable endeavors?

MP is for profit?
Which would mean they have managed to pull the wool over the IRS and US Gov eyes as a non-profit organization for what 25-30 years?

Or are you saying you don't agree with the IRS/USGOV definition of Profit and nonProfits. Which is fine but you should be honest and point out that you have your own definition.

A slick accountant will find the legal loopholes and ways to move the money around while our broken/inept IRS can do nothing about it.

Actually there can be more then one Sat Guru, Living Master around at any one time. Even a modicum of research into MP teachings, even Sri Gary's ramblings will show that there is no requirement for Only One and in fact Gary indicates there are a few others around even today.

Oh, and note that not all Sat Gurus have the same exact job, or mission. They are not all Jesus ilk, some have smaller tasks, liek sowing seeds, others are working in a specific culture, etc.

Right. And it's not the least bit odd to you that after 25yrs or so, not a single person has 'completed their path' under Gary's loving guidance? So there can truly be more, but in the history of MP it's just Gary and nobody questions it. Gotcha.

Desperate for proof points are we?

I started the thread. The results speak for themselves.

[allan1015]

Shuffler, I am going to break my responses to your questions up in two parts, first as responses to rememberingyou’s post and second direct response to your questions. My responses are in Blue

Thanks for asking these questions

1. Gary lets you know that your family is probably not evolved enough to understand why you are with the Master. This has been repeated at many seminars over the years. The master comes before your family. You should love the master more than anyone else, including your family.

If you are training for the Olympics you will find your priorities for daily life are driven by the need for training, everyday. If you are serious about spiritual enlightenment, finding God, then your priorities during the day should reflect this as well. In practice this means doing a morning, or daily, contemplation for 20 to say 60 minutes. The teaching is simply that partners, kids, dogs, jobs, are not used as excuses to not do this daily practice. That’s all.

As to discussing MP with family. In my personal life, my wife of 35 years isn't much into any religion or spirituality at all. She has never been drawn or much into any of my endeavors. My kids, I’ve always been sorta hands off with them in terms of any religious stuff, meaning if they come with questions I am happy to answer. We have had several late night kind of discussions with my daughter and friends in past years. Recently she had a religions paper due for college and we discussed L&S/MP tenets, we visited some Buddhist temples, etc.

In general I find it is common for spouses to be on different pages with religion and spirituality, especially when one partner comes into something while married. As a webmaster/admin for spiritual discussion boards over the eyars I cant count how many times someone comes to the board looking for like thinkers and lamenting how much they wished their spouse was into the same thing. L&S teachings are the same. Surat Shabd Yoga isn't a teaching for everyone. It would be probable that if you came to this teaching after marriage, that your family isn't going to be as drawn to it as you are.

This is one of those posts that I think particularly exemplifies how someone like rememberingyou is taking what I find to be a very understandable thing and spinning it with as much bias/negativity and cult like spin as he/she can.

2. Recruitment is called "One on Oneing." There are brochures and materials to help you do this and bring others onto the path. When I was on the path there were a group of Vahanas whose purpose was to conduct "seeker meetings" and help educate people about what a wonderful thing MP is. Also there have been several seminars over the years that talked about how to be a better "One on One-er."

What remeberingyou leaves out is that the instructions for one-on-oneing should be done in a non-proselytize manner. If someone walks up to me and asks me a question, “why do you seem so centered” I can, if I want to reply. Doing this is not discouraged, it’s my decision it is not required. I get no points for recruiting or such.
As I've mentioned before, direct proselytizing is actively discouraged.

There are no Vahanas anymore as far as I know. There are some ‘Seeker Meetings with Long Term Students’, perhaps this is the same thing. What ever 'meeting' there for MP can be found on the website calendar.

As far as I know these seeker meetings can only be found if you are drawn to the MP website and find yourself interested. I don't believe they are advertised, promoted in local newspapers, etc. My experience with a Baltimore based seekers meeting 3 years ago was exactly that. Never promoted and a bit hard to find and get in contact with someone
The facts as I see them is that MP recruitment is primarily about being drawn to it, not being pushed on people.

3. There is a MP heirarchy based on initiation level. From the 5th initiation onward, the chela is encouraged to "become the eyes and ears of the master." In other words, spy upon your fellow chelas and report any inconsistancies with Gary's message to the office.

[color="blue"]There is no MP Hierarchy in the terms you were asking of or in terms that anti-cult sites as about - meaning Sub Organizations. Thereis no pecking order. I don't have to report, follow, or give a ****e about any student, regardless of their level of initiation. There is only one teacher/guru.

Initiations, which basically follow the chakras and basically reflect the chakra, level of consciousness you are operating from. This type of levels is not MP specific, they are common to many paths, of hundreds of traditions.

I can’t comment on the instructions given to a 5th initiate or if that is a current practice or something that was experimented with at one point.

When chelas grow concerned that they are not having certain experiences that are promised on the path, they are "spiritually redirected" by a staff member, who are always higher initiates, and told that certain experiences won't come until a higher initiation is reached. In other words the stick that holds the carrot keeps getting longer and longer.

It is unclear what rememberingyou is referring to. My guess is that he/she is saying that if I write a letter to Sri Gary expressing concerned I'm not having all the experience I think I should, it might be/will be answered by an office staffer and not Gary directly. (An experience would be say a Dream/Vision or hear a certain sound.)

Some students some to think these experiences are important markers and indicators of progress. Some seem to get real angst when they haven't received such. Others report having such experience quite well. The teaching si that having such an experience, remember a dream vision, isn't required nor all that important. As I’ve said, students come in all flavors and some see this as critical

Personally I use a different gauge/marker, which is simply to observe if my life is better. If my consciousness is raised, If my perspective is larger, things along that ilk. A bit of emotional honesty and introspection is needed, but I feel this is much better then a dream, vision or fleeting experience that my mind could have made up on its own to appease my ego.

As to the ‘ongoing carrot’ issue, that’s a personal gripe rememberingyou has griped about before. Its hard to gauge how much is accurate, how much is his frustration for not getting to where he wanted to be as fast etc, or simply a misunderstanding. Id like to explore further, but without data, like seeing changes in print, its hard to take the variables out.

4. I have never known anyone but Gary to reach the endgame [sic], which is why Gary's theology works so well for Gary but not for others. Yes, you will pay dues until you die. And there have been several mentions in seminars over the years as to "how" to leave your money or property to MP should you die.

I am not surprised that the highest level described in Surat Shabd Yoga (not MP) ‘God Realization’ has not been reached by anyone in a mere 20/25 years. Though technically I have No data as to what levels other students are at. My understanding is that it is a private thing.

As I understand it there are still many long term students, longer then a decade and such that are still happy with MP. People Stay, People Leave. It doesn't mean the ones that leave are only right and the ones that stay are simpletons.

The only 'directions' I ever heard in regards to Wills was very quickly mentioned because someone had asked. Was it because they were extremely grateful and wanted to give back? or because they thought doing so would win them some post life favors? No idea, cant ask them now. One should not that there is absolutely no lecture, seminar, etc that promotes any value or encouragement to this kind of donation. Or actually donations of any kind are thanked for, but not presented as gaining one anything.

I do not know of any former chela who upon leaving path received anything but ill will and nasty gossip from Gary and Joy Olsen. In a very recent seminar, Gary told his flock that they should never be friends with someone who has left the path. So, when one leaves the path after a long period of time they are shunned by the social structure and the guru to whom they have devoted time, money and trust. However, Gary does say in his seeker meetings that if MP is not your thing, the master will help you find your true path. That soft sell hardens considerably if you leave after being on the path for awhile. Gary takes it as a personal afront to his ego!

I like to hear stiff in context, so Id love for rememebringyou to indicate at least which seminar. This is not because I doubt what he has said, it would be consistent to provide a warning about how much time and effort one want to give to what is usually negative energy.

I don't know what 'social structure' is being referred to? Most students I know and what others have reported here is that most of their friends are outside of MP. Perhaps rememberyou could define this MP social Structure a bit more.

I've no doubt that Sri Gary might take each former student, when they happen, as a bit of personal failure. How you see this as his concern for the students future investments, or backsliding in progress will be a matter of your temperament.

5. Finally, what happens when Gary dies--there will most likely and unfortunately be another to take his place. When I was on MP no successor had been chosen...Maybe the higher intitates will battle it out, each claiming to have received the master's message that it's them!

Transition and Cessations issues are not unique to MP, They are quite common in hundreds/thousands of spiritual paths. A few billion Muslims are divided over this very issue. Sunni and Shia, direct linage or bottoms up/chosen. Most L&S / Yoga paths haven't solved it either. Sikhs have an interesting approach, their Guru . their Living master, Sat Guru is a book. Guru Granth (aka Ani Grath) Its an interesting topic if you study religions, MP is no more faulted or unique then all the others as far as I can tell.

The greatest challenge for chelas who leave MP is reclaiming life so that they have the confidence to create friendships beyond what they had with the chelas who now shun them; finding ways to re-connect with family members who may have been pushed aside for years because of one's involvement with the path; over-coming the self-anger for being a part of such a group; and basically learning how to be a member of a world community again that does not ask for devotion or money.
Violet said it so well in one of her posts when she said "just love life." That is really the reclamation story: embracing and learning to just love life and recognizing that you don't need a guru to do that. Thank you Violet for something so profound that it is simple.

As I've noted before I am pretty much at a complete loss on this issue of leaving life behind that rememberingyou describes. If one hasn't just loved life while on MP, that would probably explain why they left. The long term students I have directly interacted with where just this way, loving life, etc.. My point is that this may be one of those self-fulfilling things. If you are on the path and move away from your life, friends, family, then you have directly violated the teachings as I know them and as I have experienced other long term chelas to live them. It might well be this is common to people that leave, because they should leave if this is their experience.
The question is where does the drive for this isolation come from? Is it in the teachings? Is it just MP or all L&S paths? Is it in the psyche/nature of the student? The fact that others don't have this experience would suggest the latter.

PART-B
The following are direct answers to your specific questions.

--Are you 100% open in telling your family about this 'path' you're on? (Y/N)

Yes
When they ask. I don’t force it on anyone

--Have you had any involvement in the recruitment/mentoring of 'seekers' or 'junior chelas' (I assume there is a pecking order based on how many initiations one has taken)? (Y/N)

No.

I have answered questions when asked. I work with anti-cult folks and am boards of a couple fo spiritually oriented organizations. We have in a sorta sitting around the campfire setting discussed each others spiritual findings etc.

There is no pecking order – Until folks are complete on the 7th (third eye chakra) we are all pretty human and able to be messed up with issues. I personally have found as much wisdom listing to a 5th as I have a 2cd and have told a 4th to F* off when they were locked in some purity kick.

--What is the endgame? At what point is the journey complete? Or is the point to keep you 'on the path' (aka paying money) for as long as possible?

The “End Game” of Surat Shabda Yoga is God Realization – Not just knowing but realizing yourself as God.

As I understand the role of the Sat Guru in Surat Shabda Yoga, they are with you until what is described as the 5th level, which in MP terms is when completed the 7th initiation level. I could be way off in understanding the exact level when the Inner master is no longer guiding me.
However, after this and at these levels I am unclear on the metaphysics of it all. At these realms one starts to find they are also the same as the inner master, the axioms of we are all one, same source, and stuff start blurring lines of delineation for me. Though I don’t think you really care about the spirituality of it all, you just care about knowing when does one not need to pay $30 a month. To that I don’t know. Could be all the way.


--How many have completed the journey and left the path with Gary's blessing? We're talking 25yrs or so here, and most of you should want to know what to expect, right?

As to what to expect, the stages of Surat Shabda Yoga are pretty well defined.

As I said above, I simply don’t know which students are at what stage, unless they tell me. This was a metric I searched for early in my investigation and found no data for it. Individuals can tell people what stage they are at, but there are no announcements and public records. It seems to be a privacy thing. MP doesn’t own the rights to tell others where I am at.

--When Gary dies, then what?

As I understand Surat Shabda Yoga (this is not MP specific) two things happen
1- The soul of the Sat Guru stays around and guides all of the Souls that where his/her chelas/students while the guru was living.
2- God will have other Sat Gurus on the planet, in numbers and in roles/missions it sees fit

If you meant specifically what happens to MP, my answer above about Cessation covers it.

[rememberingyou]

Allan you know so much for being on MP for just 2-3 years! I guess my experience of attending 4 seminars a year and regional every month for the first five years on the path, and seminars after that 3-4 times a year until I left 12 years later, not to mention all the monthlty Sat Sangs doesn't lend much credence to your knowing. You are so smart!

You have admited that you have not read all of the works, so you really don't know the evolution of MP, nor can you see the inconsistancies that come to light in that evolution. Yet you seem to work so hard at convincing everyone that you are in the know. Do you have personal time with Gary or Joy? Have you seen what goes on behind the scenes? Well, I have. And there is only a certain amount that I will reveal here because Gary and his people have vicious side and a history of trying to hurt people (no, I don't mean physically) when they leave and yes, I still carry some fear about Gary Olsen. Since you don't go to many meetings, I suggest that you purchase the last couple of seminar tapes and listen...unless Gary has had it edited out, which he has been known to do, you will hear him say that chelas should not be friends with anyone who has left the path. Or ask another chela who has been on the path for awhile and never misses a meeting.

You communicate so much knowing, so many things that you think of as facts yet I have yet to sense a vulnerable heart that bends its ear toward truth. When you were "investigating MP" did you do it by just reading sites like this? You haven't read all of the works nor attended many seminars. Did you compare his writings with Thich Nhat Hanh or Thomas Merton. Did you consider that truth is universal and can be found in all of the great paths? I really wonder about your process.

In the meantime, please keep writing. I do think you are a really good representation of the masterpath and do more to discredit its efficacy than anyone here!

[Peggy Anne]

A true master would be reluctant to call himself one.

[allan1015]

Originally Posted by Shuffler

No I don't, but as a paying member, you and others should have the mental fortitude to ask this question of him.

Oh, ok. I since it figures so promently in your attack of Gary I was hoping you would have had some more insight to know what you were talking about

Originally Posted by Shuffler

Wasn't aware of this...I learn something new every day on this thread - thanks!

Your welcome but its pretty amazing, and telling, that you did not know this? By telling I mean it frankly undercuts your credibility significatly. You seem to not mind insulting and demeaning others with even the basic homework

This fact has been mentioned dozen of times and it is a key issue in your whole ripoff, plagerism thing. Yet you didn't know it. Just blows me away.

I don't know any Sikhs, but through the wonders of technology, perhaps some of them are following this thread and will chime in one day...?

A retort that avoids the core issue, the bulk of what you and others use as slam against MP are actually slams against hundreds of paths and millions of people. Yet somehow you don't seem to care, simply telling.

Again, while I appreciate your answers - it unfortunately shows your big on show and very little on facts. Bluster on about moral fortitude, but its just bluster. If you had any you would have the integrity to know these simple basic facts by now.

So in summary, while a big part of your criticism was about rip-offs between spiritual groups you clearly show you don't even know the basics about the teachings, lineages and relationships of those groups?


You talk about the results of this thread. A good part of the 'results' of this thread are pretty much summed up by you in this retort. It goes something like this:

Many of the folks posting, such as yourself, are opposed to, don't believe in, spiritual belief systems and practices that are broad and are not specific to MP. Your NOT talking about MP organization, Or Gary's specific practices, or Gary the man, your talking about stuff that is the belief system of people way outside of MP and even Eck, I would estimate millions of people world wide.

On top if which you don't seem to care.

I don't see how you can expect me to come away with any conclusion other then you are just looking to push your beliefs systems on too others. Its hard for me to not reach the conclusion that you the intolerant ones, the equivalent of spiritual racists, bigots.

Which is all fine, its your right, but its also right to point this what I'll call 'agenda' out, though I don't mean to imply you've put it together in some plan. Its also imho, a distraction from figuring out the truth of MP. You might as well post that all religions are bad and harmful and be done with it.

[earthman]

Originally Posted by allan1015

Earthman,
just wondering if you have any questions on any part of it?

Nope. No questions for you to answer.

Originally Posted by AxisMundi

You yourself are all the self-supporting evidence I need.

Go back and read your own stuff.

And thanks for bumping the thread. We need to expose these charletons.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Shuffler

Here's an open invitation to the one and only 'living master' to come out into the open and set the record straight (Allan you've been somewhat helpful, but I think we're all ready to hear from The Man...please let him know we're waiting).

Yes.

Originally Posted by Peggy Anne

A true master would be reluctant to call himself one.

literary historical accounts of enlightenment or religious tomes honor this truism

[Violet11]

Rememberingyou,

Thank you – to you and others - for sharing your experiences and thoughts with everyone here. Though I initially discovered this thread on a whim and decided to post (armed with some exposure to MP reading materials, my dark sense of humor, and a few glasses of wine ), what transpired was a real learning experience. By the way, to you and to other former MP members, I want to apologize for making flippant comments and jokes that I now see as insensitive to people who have suffered due to their involvement with MP. My fascination with cults and cult-like groups goes back to my college years - there was an experience I had that sparked the interest but I'll spare you the story; it's not that significant. Anyway, I've spent a lot of time reading, etc. trying to learn about the dynamics and development of different cults. But admittedly I also probably spent a good amount of time laughing and being entertained by some of them. For that I now recognize my naivete. There are incredibly wise and insightful people who have contributed here, and it was pretty short sighted of me to separate the intriguing dynamic of cults from the actual human experience. You have definitely schooled me and I am grateful. Thank you, and thanks also to Shuffler for inspiring the whole discussion.

Would it be too personal of a question to ask about the logistics of how you found MasterPath (ie. through friends, internet, etc.)? And even if you prefer not to say, would you be able to share when approximately during the 12 years you began to see inconsistencies, etc. that bothered you? I know you've already talked about some of the issues that caused you to leave, but I was just curious if the first few years were a lot less revealing in that way than the later years.

Secondly, I was wondering if you think MasterPath is aware of Allan sharing his thoughts (and 'defending' MP) on this message board and if they would approve? I realize the word "they" is pretty vague, but I remember seeing a post here from a representative of MP who suggested that Allan take a more “sahaja” route and consult with another chela. Just wondered if you could speak to that in any way. I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering all of these things. Thanks again.