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Thanks end_of_faith. So the inner master is basically visualized as the outer master Gary, who somehow gets stationed in the student's third eye at the time of 2nd initiation. But what if Gary doesn't even do the initiation ceremony:
Well, it must not matter because the circular logic goes like this: the outer initiation is a only a reflection of what has or will transpire on the inner. The "true" initiator is the "true inner master." So, it seems anyone can give initiation in the 'name of the master'.
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Originally Posted by Violet11
Does the karma still get transferred to Gary if his wife is the one who performs the ceremony? WTF? If the "living master" is so important, why can Joy replace him during an important rite (a rite where he is supposedly getting stationed in their third eye and taking responsibility for their karma)?
Well, I guess they all share in the karma. Joy certainly projected the 'holy attitude' that she was 'taking on the karma.' I'll spare the descriptive details. The rationale is they can 'take on' karma because they are so inseparably connected to the God-Source that they are able to release the chelas karma to the Shabda. Whereas the chelas have yet to reach the third eye, or awaken their own soul, let alone deal with the 4 types of karma. I guess the 'enlightened ones' offer an expedition of karma for the unenlightened devotees.
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Originally Posted by Violet11
Yes, it makes no sense and it's so obviously self-serving that I can't believe people fall for it. It would be one thing if the monthly payment went to making the world a better place, helping the less fortunate, etc. Maybe then an association to karma would seem a little more plausible. But money going into Gary's wallet? Holy smokes.
Yes, I now see the entire charade as self-serving. And I ask myself everyday how I could have fallen for it. I think that a person must return to the beginning to understand the evolution of the MP. I also think that if you were to screen the majority of people on the MP, you would find that a large percentage were introduced through a friend. Then they generally follow the recommended steps of reading a profile, watching a video, attending a seeker meeting with Gary, and then writing a letter to the "master" to become a chela, etc.
It's called one-on-one. And it is viewed as the most effective means for reaching seekers. Over the years as they have analyzed the chela numbers and how seekers came to the Path, they have determined that all their advertising in Yoga Journal, etc. does not garner the quality or committment of adherents as good old-fashioned one-on-one.
My theory on one-on-one: you trust your friends, and it is easy to transfer your trust in a friend to the concept that Gary and Joyce are 'enlightened souls', or that MP represents the truth. The friend that introduced me to "Light and Sound Teachings" was Joyce. Except at the time, both her and Gary were gung-ho initiates of Eckankar (which I didn't resonate with or buy, but I trusted and loved Joyce and Gary). That didn't work out so well.
Last edited by end_of_faith; 11-11-2009 at 08:16 AM..
And I hope this doesn't sound trite or insulting, but I personally think dreams are just a reflection of things rolling around in the brain. For instance I might have airplane dreams a lot because I fly for my job. Maybe the airplane starts going down and sometimes it's saved and sometimes the dream ends when it supposedly crashes. But I also have amazingly real, vivid dreams about a variety of things. Some of which I awake from and think... there HAS to be a reason behind this! Maybe there is. But I guaran-f-ing-tee you that Gary Olsen does not occupy space in anyone's brain. I'm not even sure if he claims to, and if I'm jumping to that conclusion I apologize. But I'll just say that as complex as human beings are, no human is complex enough to take control of another's brain. That's pretty basic I think.
No, it doesn't sound trite or insulting. I think the same regarding dreams. Sant Mat shuns dreams as a signpost of spiritual awareness. Eckankar and MP are big in supporting the idea of dreams. Heck, if you dream yourself to be a swan, you have realized your soul and are holy transformed. As you can see through my writing, I never had one of those dreams. In fact, I just came across two crystal swans given to me that I'm donating to the local church. I figure a modicum of kindness in not smashing them to the pavement is fair treatment of their symbolic spiritual meaning, or whatever. Or maybe I'll just toss them in the garbage dump like I did with the many hundreds of audio/video tapes.
I've heard lots of interesting dreams used as verification of spiritual attainments. How do I view it now: I don't believe any of it. And as you have said Violet, it is so hilariously preposterous and ridiculous.... you don't see it when you're in it. I think there are lots of reasons for losing objectivity and clear thinking when immersed in the 'path.'
Last edited by end_of_faith; 11-11-2009 at 10:45 AM..
Thanks, I see now that the initiations are meant to be symbolic and anyone can act on behalf of the "inner master". Maybe I had it in my head that they were similar to the rite of confirmation in christianity, which is performed by the church priest/pastor. In fact, I think one of the current chelas had made that comparison as an argument that initiations are no different than other religious rites of passage. So that's where my line of thought was. I mean, how often does Gary actually interact with his beloved chelas one-on-one? Perhaps their initiations would be a valuable opportunity to develop the guru-student relationship. But I suppose in Gary's mind he can just do that through tapes, form letters, and dreams.
Is anyone else in MP on Joy's "saint" level? I can appreciate that she was your dear friend and that would definitely influence one's willingness to trust in a new spiritual path. When I was in my early twenties, I'm sure I would easily have gone the same direction as you if someone I trusted was involved. So when I say "fall for it" I guess I have someone like allan1015 in mind. But as it's been mentioned, maybe some are just drawn to a relatively obscure group like MasterPath because they get off on being different. Or "special" or "exclusive" in their own minds.
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Originally Posted by end_of_faith
My theory on one-on-one: you trust your friends, and it is easy to transfer your trust in a friend to the concept that Gary and Joyce are 'enlightened souls', or that MP represents the truth. The friend that introduced me to "Light and Sound Teachings" was Joyce. Except at the time, both her and Gary were gung-ho initiates of Eckankar (which I didn't resonate with or buy, but I trusted and loved Joyce and Gary). That didn't work out so well.
Do you know the circumstances of Gary and Joyce splitting from Eckenkar (presumably to form MasterPath)? Did they at some point stop acknowledging their former involvement with Eckenkar? It sounds like some of the more recent chelas never heard Gary talk about Eck or credit it with his path to Godhood.
Do you think all gurus are basically full of crap? I sort of do, particularly in today's world where egos reign and accumulation of wealth is part of the equation. As it's been said here many times, "follow the money". It's just slimy to charge people. But then to top it off by encouraging them to serve your personal whims...as a way to find God?! Oy.
Thanks, I see now that the initiations are meant to be symbolic and anyone can act on behalf of the "inner master". Maybe I had it in my head that they were similar to the rite of confirmation in christianity, which is performed by the church priest/pastor. In fact, I think one of the current chelas had made that comparison as an argument that initiations are no different than other religious rites of passage. So that's where my line of thought was. I mean, how often does Gary actually interact with his beloved chelas one-on-one? Perhaps their initiations would be a valuable opportunity to develop the guru-student relationship. But I suppose in Gary's mind he can just do that through tapes, form letters, and dreams.
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Violet, I think you are very astute in your perceptions of initiation. MP claims that the 'path' is free of ceremony and ritual. I now see the initiations as nothing but ceremony and ritual. I made the comparison between baptism and initiation. In my opinion, both are meaningless. I was never baptized or saved, and likewise, I no longer view or consider the initiation as a valid or real indicator of spiritual progress or enlightenment.
I'm not familiar with the rite of confirmation in the Catholic church, but there is great emphasis placed on the 'ascending initiation levels' within MP. Each initiation supposedly represents a level of spiritual attainment.
I think your question re: why can anyone sit in for the 'true living master' is not only pertinent, but gets to the heart of the whole 'reflection principle' thingy. And if we apply the principle as they say it works: well, the outer is not reflecting the inner. If the "inner" is initiating, why isn't the "outer reflection" performing it!? Gary stopped giving initiations early on. Of course, I don't believe anything that MP or Gary says is true. So maybe a chela could offer a more enlightened understanding of the whole initiation process, and their experience with it. I did, however, have an initiator ask me to sit in his lap after receiving an initiation. That was real special. NOT!
Hi again all - Been absent for work and personal reasons but still enjoying reading the posts since the questions that arose from my previous post on Oct-23 - mostly from @Violet11, which I have not been ignoring and which I been looking forward to respond to here, as I respect her line of questioning which strikes me as one of a genuine truth seeker wanting to know "what's it all about?" :-)
@DeepCynic has expressed a desire to see this thread reach 100 pages - me too, though perhaps for different reasons - in this day and age of free speech on the internet where anyone (rightly or wrongly) is allowed to say pretty much anything about anyone with impunity, especially on open forums such as this which allow the poster total anonimity, the Real Truth about anything is effectively hidden between true representation and mis-representation - So as long as all sides can be represented here in front of the 40,000 or so viewers, then the truth (and "The Truth") has a chance to be discovered by those seeking it - Therefore, even if in representing my experiences of studying with Sri Gary and MP, one seeker is in a position to view "both sides", then I would lovingly feel that "an objective choice" is still on offer.
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Peacemaker21, first I want to give you some credit for being able to articulate your position much better than say...
...and I thank you @Violet11 for your civility and a genuine desire to get to the root and truth of things regardless of what that is - I'm all for open-dialogue and discussion fuelled by critical thinking - and, as a matter of fact, it's something that Sri Gary encourages, not supresses: for students to discuss what they have heard at a satsang class or seminar for example, with each other to discover truth deeper in themselves - a far-cry from the allegations of mind-numbing brainwashing and the suspension of all reason claimed by some others on this thread - I sometimes find it helpful to view the principles of the light and sound teachings, which MP is based on, as a method of profound psychological inquiry into the self, and so I genuinely appreciate the challenge of answering any and all questions in a way that helps me discover more angles and aspects to the Truth About Everything in myself.
What I'm most certainly not trying to do here however, is convince you or any other viewers on this thread that I'm "in the right" - We don't have Kool-Aid in the UK but I take it to mean "buying in" to e.g. a guru's version of the truth and taking all he says as gospel - well, I don't buy into anybody's version of the truth until I experience elements of Truth for myself - and without going into too much detail here in public, my inner experiences to date are of the nature: When you SEE Truth, you KNOW Truth.
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Obviously you do believe Gary is an authentic saint or Sat Guru. But why?
Well...after the End Of Belief - and Faith...comes the Start Of Knowing ;-)
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I'm gathering that it's because of your "inner" experiences. What "inner" experiences cancel out the outer experiences (yours and others)? He appears in your dreams? Easily explainable as something other than a "guru" actually entering your subconscious on his own. He speaks to you in your mind during meditation/spiritual practices? Easily explainable as something other than a "guru" presence. You feel "love", etc. when you're in his presence? Easily explained.
I would be interested to understand what exactly you mean by "easily explainable" - truly...for in THAT is the very process of psychological investigation that I am most keen to conduct myself - within the folds of my own consciousness - as a scientist by profession, the scientific method of a Divine Science (rather than belief in the Divine alone) appeals to me.
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You find wisdom and truth in the books he sells you? Well, they don't contain his words, they are words he copied from previous works! It's just a matter of faith? Why have faith in another human being who by many accounts is undeserving of your faith? Why have faith in ANYONE other than yourself?! What is it about having a "guru" at all that is so ingrained in your way of thinking?
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Yes, I don't believe in "gurus" as defined in MP and elsewhere, so there's the first place we disagree. But if I was your sister or daughter or mother, how would you explain to me that there's this blond tan guy in the United States who is God incarnate selling books and photos and you continuously devote time and money to this man as your "guru"?
Not "believing in gurus" is totally fine with me - I was an atheist myself for many years till various inner transformative noumena got me curious about what is really going on out there in the universal macrocosm and the inner microcosm within my cranium - I am keen on finding repeatable, scientific explanations for everything - hence my curiosity (at least from a scientific point), to know if of all the former Eckankar students who went on to found spin-off paths of their own, there is actual legitimacy to the claim that the Soul now in Gary Olsen was the one that was in the Radha Soami Sat Guru, Sawan Singh Ji.
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Where is the lineage? Is it in the pretty drawings/painting of Gary with Sawan Singh and Jesus and whoever else? Who taught him in this life? Where did he get the teachings? Was he in Eckenkar? If so, what person does he credit with his journey to Godhood? For instance Paramahansa Yogananda always paid reverence to Sri Yuketswar in everything he wrote. Does Gary ever talk about or credit HIS living "guru"?
Yes he has and does talk about and credit his teachers - Sri Gary's living guru between 1973 and 1985 was Sri Darwin Gross - The Living Master of Eckankar from 1971 - 1981. The older chelas and former office staff will probably remember the extensive details on the MasterPath Website that ran till about 2003 which addressed all of these and many other common inquiries about Sri Gary: On it for example, was described Gary Olsen meeting Charan Singh Ji when the Radha Soami Master visited Minnesota in 1964, when Gary Olsen was 16 years old.
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Have you read the "False Guru Test" and other sets of rules or guidelines for evaluating authenticity? How would Gary possibly ever pass?
Let's not forget that you are attending, what, three seminars a year? (I'm only guessing). You live in another country. You rarely come into contact with Gary or Joy. What, besides your identifying with what was written many many years ago (and hijacked by Gary) keeps you believing in this charade?
The human imagination is powerful, we've all seen many examples of this in ridiculous spiritual groups and cults formed by other egomaniacs. How do you find yourself different?
Yes I have read the test. How is charging a fee to members to help with the financial and administrative upkeep of a spiritual or religious organisation a crime?
Yes, I attend seminars either in person or across the Internet about 3 times a year and have been doing so since 1995 - Amidst all the talk of alleged money-grabbing on this thread, nobody has yet mentioned that students of MP in foreign countries are actually given 50% off all dues, all materials and all seminar fees, so effectively I pay about £10 a month. Deepak Chopra recently charged £50 per ticket for a talk by him in Manchester, UK. I pay $20 (£13-£14) to attend each hour-long seminar with Sri Gary in person or across the internet, amounts which I do not consider exhorbitant for helping toward paying for room-hire costs etc and to help with the upkeep of an organisation whose teachings have brought a lot of illumination, insight and clarity into my life - In the UK, church leaders such as pastors, vicars, and bishops are paid salaries, so I personally don't see any difference with Sri Gary and Joy receiving modest incomes to fund an unlavish lifestyle in return for the spiritual guidance they provide to their "congregation" of chelas - IF this is really what is going on - IF it is not, and there really were some evidence of Sri Gary and Joy etc "living off the hog" from their chelas, as I wrote before, I would be most concerned and would expect an explanation but so far no-one has presented any concrete evidence of this - only their opinions.
I'll respond to some of the follow-on questions to @Violet11's in my next post or two. I'll try to stay true to my moniker and remain in peace rather than become @WarStarter but if the disgruntled ex-chelas have further evidence, or if seekers reading this have further questions then I would be most interested to hear them, either in public here or please DM (Direct Message) me and I'll respect your privacy on any matters anyone doesn't wish to talk about in public - I can also e-mail the FAQ from the former website to anyone who is interested - it's not my place to post it publically - just DM me :-)
peace.
Last edited by PeaceMaker21; 11-11-2009 at 01:48 PM..
Reason: typo fixed
I'm all for open-dialogue and discussion fuelled by critical thinking - and, as a matter of fact, it's something that Sri Gary encourages, not supresses: for students to discuss what they have heard at a satsang class or seminar for example, with each other to discover truth deeper in themselves - a far-cry from the allegations of mind-numbing brainwashing and the suspension of all reason claimed by some others on this thread -
What if you wanted to discuss or think critically about outside spiritual ideas that did not involve Gary Olsen being your "master"? Because I believe you 100% that he wants you to think about and discuss his satsangs and seminars. But does he encourage your critical thinking about MY personal beliefs and truths or the beliefs and truths of others? Does Gary want you to think critically about what former chelas have shared here? Or only about the beliefs and truths that are consistent with light and sound teachings and him being your "master"?
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Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
What I'm most certainly not trying to do here however, is convince you or any other viewers on this thread that I'm "in the right" - We don't have Kool-Aid in the UK but I take it to mean "buying in" to e.g. a guru's version of the truth and taking all he says as gospel - well, I don't buy into anybody's version of the truth until I experience elements of Truth for myself - and without going into too much detail here in public, my inner experiences to date are of the nature: When you SEE Truth, you KNOW Truth.
Okay, but I have SEEN truth. And I KNOW truth too. And I KNOW Gary Olsen is not authentic. In my heart and soul I am positive of it. Believe it or not, MasterPath followers are not the only people on earth capable of having a "spiritual experience". I have had profound spiritual experiences of my own. None of which involved another human being as a guide, and none of which I attribute to any major religion, minor religion, or cult.
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Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
Well...after the End Of Belief - and Faith...comes the Start Of Knowing ;-)
Sorry, but I have to say these sorts of non-answers are not thought-provoking to me at all, and reveal nothing. And to be honest they come off pretty arrogant.
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Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
I would be interested to understand what exactly you mean by "easily explainable" - truly...for in THAT is the very process of psychological investigation that I am most keen to conduct myself - within the folds of my own consciousness - as a scientist by profession, the scientific method of a Divine Science (rather than belief in the Divine alone) appeals to me.
Well, what I meant by “easily explainable” should be evident to any scientist who has thought about this critically. You know the power of the human brain. You've seen how hypnosis works, how things like brain surgery and chemicals alter how a human experiences life. You are aware that the brain's perception of reality is not always reality. You must be knowledgeable about how our human emotional and psychological needs can blur the truth to suit them. Not just in small ways, but in extraordinary ways like having conversations with another human being in your own subconscious, visions, dreams, etc.
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Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
Yes he has and does talk about and credit his teachers - Sri Gary's living guru between 1973 and 1985 was Sri Darwin Gross - The Living Master of Eckankar from 1971 - 1981. The older chelas and former office staff will probably remember the extensive details on the MasterPath Website that ran till about 2003 which addressed all of these and many other common inquiries about Sri Gary: On it for example, was described Gary Olsen meeting Charan Singh Ji when the Radha Soami Master visited Minnesota in 1964, when Gary Olsen was 16 years old.
If Darwin Gross was his "living master", why isn't Darwin Gross in the lovely fanciful painting of Gary in his pink shirt/blue sweater with all the dead masters including Jesus? Did Darwin Gross ever say he wanted Gary to be his successor instead of Klemp? Did he approve of MasterPath? Does the claim that Gary met a Radha Soami Master when he was 16 mean that some sort of torch was passed on to him? Was this Minnesota meeting ever publicly acknowledged or referred to by Charan Singh Ji? Have you asked Gary recently about his Sawan Singh Ji reincarnation claims? Because it’s been alluded to here that he took back that claim later on, and accused the chelas of misinterpretation.
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Originally Posted by PeaceMaker21
Yes I have read the test. How is charging a fee to members to help with the financial and administrative upkeep of a spiritual or religious organisation a crime?
Well, I never said it was a "crime", and I never said the dues were exorbitant either. But the fact of the matter is that Gary is accumulating wealth through the guise of this organization, and by his own admission has no desire to use funds to feed the hungry, contribute to the betterment of mankind, support soldiers or refugees, fund cancer research, etc. On the contrary, his concerns seem to be geared toward himself. Selling 11 X 14 glossy photos of one’s self is not humble and doesn’t seem very spiritually or educationally oriented. Neither does telling followers that serving HIS wants and needs is a great blessing for them.
The only crime I've accused Gary of is abusing the 501(c)(3) non-profit tax status, for reasons which have been made clear on this thread.
But back to the false guru test...you say you've read it. So I ask again, how could Gary possibly pass? Also, you said you’ve been under Gary’s tutelage for fourteen years or so. How many times have you spoken with him one-on-one (in real life)? Do you feel you have a good grasp on who he is as a person? When do you anticipate achieving “sainthood”?
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To end_of_faith...
Responses to @Violet's Questions of Oct-23
Responses to @Violet's Questions of Oct-23
