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Old 12-18-2009, 05:48 PM
 
268 posts, read 456,660 times
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Great posts, Still_Kicking. Looks like you've done a lot of reading and research on cults through all of this. Though I've no real first hand experience, it's a subject I've been intrigued with for many years and appreciate learning as much as I can. So thank you.

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you'd left and returned to MP a couple of times before finally exiting a third time. It sounds like maybe you always had a little bit of doubt about MP (??), but was there something outstanding in particular that caused you to say goodbye for good? If you'd prefer not to elaborate I understand.

Another cult I watched for years was Church Universal and Triumphant (CUT) when Elizabeth Clare Prophet was the leader - who incidentally died a couple months ago. I think some former members filed a class action lawsuit against the church at one time, but I'm not sure if it was successful. Anyway, they came to mind as I was reading about the "dispensing of existence" in your post...the whole dynamic of fear and exclusivity. A perceived crisis also makes followers easier to manipulate. In CUT's case it was nuclear war, so bomb shelters for hundreds were built. Were you still with MasterPath for the '06 bird flu directive? It's been defended here by a couple of current chelas and I realize it's nothing in comparison to fallout shelters with military weapons. But it did sort of sound like a similar fear-based manipulation or attempt to divert attention. Wondering if you had thoughts about it.

 
Old 12-18-2009, 07:36 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default Great questions on why someone comes and goes from cults

I think the term that is used is called "cult hopping". Hey this might be cathartic to do anyway.

Anyway there were reservations from the very beginning. I was however admonished that I was being an egotist by a close friend who was also a MP student & that I was still enmeshed with being stuck in the egotistical mind and I really didn't want to transcend it. Cajoled would be a good way to describe the reason I signed up. I stayed for ~3 years.

The 1st time I quit, something along the lines of if I am getting this pissed off about what is being said in MP meetings by the Olsen's that I had better leave. I couldn't even stop being angry, to make matters worse Gary once made the comment that "if you're pissed off you must want to be pissed off". I clearly see that now as a shame based approach to get people to kow-tow, and attempt to understand or transcend one's anger, at least that was the spiel. Instead of listening to my feelings, as I had done through out my life at least up until that point I was denying them. Obviously the wrong thing to do to maintain self respect and integrity, but there you go, lesson learned. Then there was the issues with my group at work being disbanded and me being potentially w/out a job, that I erroneously thought that the reason that I was not going to be employed was because I didn't have my spiritual life together. There were other reason's why I was vulnerable at the time, suffice to say it was clearly BS, both what I was buying into from the MP and my own thoughts now having been programmed. So I went back, and regretted it! The next time I saw Gary I was chastised in the meeting (Darshan) line to see him, because I wasn't all smiles in seeing my master again. [Undiagnosed physical issue is why I wasn't all smiles]

I stayed for 9 months before I got diagnosed with mercury poisoning as well as hypoglycemia, and it was getting worse, that combination really puts a person out of whack. But I could see that there was a physical issue underlying what was the real root cause of my discontent / discomfort, not some hocus pocus of "spiritual discontent', so I pulled the ripcord and left a 2nd time, especially recalling my meeting w/ Gary that 9 months previously.

After that things were tough, in fact really tough, I moved into a new house, a new job that had me travelling internationally every other month for 2 week stints, major dental rework to remove all of the silver amalgams (50% Hg if you didn't know) and detoxing from the mercury poisoning itself all at the same time, tremendous stress is an understatement. Pretty much felt like crap all the time. In fact dealing w/ all of that & not having decompressed from being in a cult, led yet again back to thinking that my life was out of whack and it just had to be a spiritual issue. Yeah right, it couldn't have just been all the other stresses on top of that as well, now could it? So back I went a 3rd time.

Anyway long story short my life tanked and my spiritual viewpoint didn't add one iota of help. And so after awhile I just knew that what was happening to me wasn't anything to do with spiritual attitudes, it was just the way that life happens sometimes.

Through out all of this I could see that I was a survivor of a # of harsh, tough experiences, but it wasn't a spirituality enlightened / higher viewpoint that pulled me out, it was my never say die attitude that pulled me through. I'd had that attitude before I was ever on the MP so I knew in the back of my head that I'd make it through. I had some very supportive friends too. It was just a b***h to have go back and deal with all of the different thoughts, feelings, emotions and other ways I had mistrusted myself through the whole process, which is the process that I am working through currently.

But at the end of the day that's what its all about, forgiving yourself for one's mistakes and errors in judgement and patiently moving on with life. As for the MP, or their good intentions, if they have any, are not my concern. As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I figure when people wake up to what is going on, if they ever do, then they'll likely come across this blog and learn for themselves.
 
Old 12-18-2009, 07:50 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default Oh the bird flu thing

Yeah but by now my head was so rattled with other crap in my life, it was just one more stressor.

As I look back on it now it sounds way off, but I had studied pandemic stuff, (read the book "The Tipping Point") so while his statements were more than a bit exaggerated, compared to the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 i didn't think at the time that it was too strange. There were similar viewpoints held by others in the media about it, looks like old Gary got caught up in someone else's fear mongering.

I just chalked it up to someone who was projecting a Spanish Flu like catastrophe, and we'll just have to see if that all happens, (catastrophizing a typical cult behavior).

For that he probably deserves it for all the fear mongering that he has caused others, that have hung on every word he said, seeking his approval, call it karmic kickback if you will. Which is a fair thing to say, wouldn't you!

Cheers
 
Old 12-18-2009, 09:31 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default Just in case you were wondering....

This telling of my story while I was on the MP, was originally suggested as a "Recovery Key" in videos that I posted links to earlier and was an extremely cathartic thing for me to do.

I do suggest this technique for others to, to help with working through thoughts and feelings one may go through after leaving something like the MP. The videos contain a # of "Recovery Keys" that are worth looking into for one's process of moving forward.

It isn't necessary to post it here if you aren't comfortable with sharing, but it does help to do it just for yourself. My perspective is that it helps you get reacquainted with "all of yourself" once again.

If I could say one more thing about this, we are not just spiritual beings, but also mental, emotional and physical beings, all wrapped up in one. To put one viewpoint, (i.e. the spiritual viewpoint) as superior, above or to the degradation of other healthy viewpoints about oneself is violation of the real self, that is whole self. At least in my opinion and experience to be a complete being means to take all of these viewpoints into consideration equally, not just the spiritual viewpoint.

For those of you who don't know this is in direct contradiction to what Gary Olsen and the MP directs its students. They skew this by reframing things such as the lower viewpoint vs. the higher viewpoint, however that my dear friends is part of the "thought reform" they attempt to impregnate into your mind, and thought patterns. At least that's my take on it.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:18 AM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default How Accepting a Master screws you

I want to thank you Violet for asking the question as you did, it prompted me to do a little more than what I had posted yesterday. I had been reviewing those videos of Madeleine Tobias talking about getting out of a cult, she highly recommended doing some activities to help the recovery process, one of which was write down how you managed to get and stay involved with a cult, like the Masterpath. I realized that I had only partially done that in my previous post.

In fact Mrs. Tobias states in the 2nd video, that people don’t really begin the recovery process from leaving a cult unless they do the steps, they stay in a limbo like state can go on for as long as 10 years or perhaps even longer.

When I joined the MP there had been so many times that I attempted to make my mind my friend, at least that is what one was told to do when faced with this seemingly unending stream of negative thoughts one would get after embracing the MP. I did everything, the spiritual exercises, the unending “inner work” of challenging my own ego-mind and holding it in a restrained manner, and then repeating the process with my shadow, my anima and animus and yet still after all that I had been told to do I was not where I knew I needed to be in my viewpoint. While I finally was able to stop reacting, I knew I wasn’t happy or more enlightened or more free, in fact I knew that there was something that I was missing somehow, somewhere. Something was still nagging at me, I mean here I had quelled these supposed unruly aspects to my mind and personality, and yet I was still not getting to the peace I had worked so earnestly for.

The reason I now see why the mind was pissed off, and was still seething beneath the surface is that I had come to accept some false belief and it was rebelling against them, meaning that I was buying into a lie of some sort.

For me at least the one that was most damaging to me that I could see was the fundamental belief that I had some sort of special protection by having some sort an Inner master who was God no less, who was protecting me from all of the evil in the world, and that he was even paying off my karma. When I believed this it gave me a false sense of protection to do whatever one wants to do without concern for real consequences, since you’re doing whatever it is “in His name”, so you’re covered, at least that’s the spiel.
My own ethics and morals were at least temporarily suspended in lieu of gaining higher consciousness, the argument against this, purported by Gary Olsen and the MP, was that I was being ruled by my own conscience, and by that you were conning myself, the old statement he made was “con” + “science”, instead of course relying upon the Master.
So if bad things happened to me it was because I hadn’t truly relied upon the Master, or alternatively that I had some far deeper, more important spiritual lesson to learn from what I was going through, and burning off this karma, no matter how tough or bad the situation was. But that was the crux of the problem was that I spent the time deeply soul searching as to why I was faced with such a large set of problems that were in my life and what I could learn from it. I was grateful and appreciative of those around me and about life despite the hardships, I was open to the truth, yet still no real deep understanding came. Suffice to say I checked and re-checked my attitudes about how I was dealing with others and myself and could see that I was doing pretty good on that side of things for the most part and yet I was still at odds with myself. Things just weren't working so I left the MP, in my final letter to Gary I think it was 5 or 6 pages long, listing a litany of fallacies and issues that were still unresolved. That was 2006, and my life listed along, depression dogged my heels, and yet I continued to attempt to work the issues.
But then I saw the blog posting here of recent about the two chelas living together who were also lovers and one murdered the other. Here there were two “protected” beings, one of which apparently who was very devoted by all accounts and he was murdered by another chela.

Where was the protection and guidance there?

Couldn’t and shouldn’t the inner master have intervened in the matter, or if the outer master, or other god realized beings on the MP, who were also purportedly to be omniscient aware of this issue and then intervened, made a phone call and helped one or both of these chelas out in their consciousness, spiritually redirecting them?!?!
And then why didn’t Gary talk about it during a seminar, to me that was very telling indeed. There would need to be a lot of explaining to do on this that could not be easily swept under the proverbial rug. As I often used to say, “it’s not just what someone says its what they don’t say that is important to understand as well”.

Oh I’m sure that Gary when he here’s about this challenge will have some sort of concocted answer about karmic debt, or one or both chelas being a recalcitrant, or maybe use a mental instability excuse, or something else to explain this away when they here of the challenge presented here. But that flies in the face of the purported notion that the Master takes on one’s karma and burns it off on the inner planes, let alone the protection and safety of following a “Living Master”. Clearly a load of BS!

I strongly recommend that anyone wanting to move on from being on the Masterpath, or any cult for that matter that they review those videos with Madeline Tobias and do the recommended activities called out as Recovery Keys.

All the best
 
Old 12-19-2009, 09:09 PM
 
1,628 posts, read 4,027,595 times
Reputation: 541
Wow, Still_Kicking, I am glad you came along...

Great stuff!
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:00 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Thanks deepcynic, appreciate that, hopefully others are benefiting from this as well. I got a couple more points to make that might be helpful. Stay tuned.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:01 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default Is the Masterpath a cult?

When one is 1st introduced to the masterpath you are told that it isn't a cult, since Gary repeatedly states you shouldn't worship him or his personality. But that is his definition of what a cult is, if you accept that definition, and don’t go searching for an independent definition of what a cult is, then you begin walking down a slippery slope.

Gary goes on to say that Christians are deluded since they’re worshiping the personality of Jesus. Yet in fact he demands that you follow what he has to say in your spiritual training, which is the highest viewpoint that one can have and thus how you should lead your life, in fact that you’re to use his image pictured in your mind’s eye when doing spiritual exercises, (What effect does that have on one’s psyche? It can’t be good), i.e. creating a trance like state. All of which begins the process of crippling a person’s mental faculties, all starting from the little seed of accepting his definition of what a cult is.
Instead of a more broad definition of what a cult is, which is a controlling and manipulative organization, also see the previous post on the characteristics of what a cult is.

Admittedly I didn’t see the masterpath display every single one of the characteristics but it sure has quite a # of them, at least 70% of the list. So if it smells like a fish, tastes like a fish and looks like fish then it is more than likely it’s a fish.

Additionally whatever perspective that is contrary to Gary’s viewpoint that you or someone else presents is considered to be a limited viewpoint, lacking in spiritual depth or broadness, or that you are just confused, and that no matter what the issue is that it is always the chela’s limited viewpoint that is the obstacle to being free, enlightened, coming from a higher perspective, etc…

It misses the point though: It’s not a matter of who wins the argument but what is right, true and correct.

But in the confines of the MP, Gary, Dennis and Joy are the God-realized and that they are the omniscient keepers of the highest truth so no matter if there is a conflicting paradox or contradiction, be rest assured that they chela will be on the losing/ lost, untruthful, incorrect, confused and or limited viewpoint side of things.

There is a circular logic that is used here, that once you accept one of the assumptions, then you get sucked into the rest and you too end up getting indoctrinated with the same circular logic, and trapped. One then becomes screwed and tattooed either way if you buy into any of what is purported.
 
Old 12-19-2009, 10:55 PM
 
138 posts, read 244,339 times
Reputation: 45
Default Cost / Benefit of being in a cult like the masterpath

It may seem to some that the posting on this blog by myself or others is all one long negative diatribe about the shortcomings of the masterpath (MP), its leaders and members and that it is nothing more than sour grapes and burnt offerings of a former student that “just doesn't get it”, or some such crap.

If that was the whole story or the end of it, then I would be denying something within myself; that something that was always me, a fundamental part of who I am.

I and others might also be denying ourselves the ability to heal by communicating with and amongst ourselves about what we actually have gone through if we didn’t have a place to connect with one another, and others about the real cost of being involved with the MP, and finding that common ground and understanding that we aren't alone.

A very important point is that all of the aspects of goodness, grace, mercy, compassion, higher intelligence, wisdom, etc, that were attributed to being a member of the MP and or having a master were nothing more than something that was always a part of myself, that I already had and just mistakenly attributed to the experience of being on the MP or to some entity like a master.

Do I think I’m a god or something like it, no far from it, that would just be falling into the same self-serving, narcissistic trap that Gary has served up to himself and has fallen in love with, and forgot that he was only duping himself, and so it would seem, continues to do to others. That assumes that he actually believes the majority of what actually comes out of his own mouth, or that he could simply say this was all done for my own and others enlightenment.

Does that excuse what was done to me, and others, by being involved with the MP?

I would say the price was far higher then the benefit derived, (the cost of cognitive dissonance, confusion, misery, memory loss, depression, dread, terrorizing fear, PTSD, the list could go on, but you get the point), for it took far too much time, energy, money, and life from me to really enjoy the upside benefits that I’ve previously mentioned, at least so far. Hence the reason why I've chosen to write so intimately about my experience while on the MP.

I cannot speak of the many marriages and loving relationships that I know dissolved because one of the partners went into self-destruct mode while on the MP. I am quite sure that there are many former members who will read this and know of one or more relationships tanking directly or indirectly attributable to at least one partner being on the MP.

I cannot even begin to truly speak of the cost to the poor chap who lost his life at the hand of his fellow chela, and lover. I did not know Doug or Francisco but I am quite sure that both would rather have never been involved with the masterpath to begin with, particularly the way things turned out for both of them.

Gary might argue that freedom is not free, or that the real truth is always bittersweet, or some such crap to obfuscate the personal cost of a life. But that actually violates the tenant that he allegedly purports to support that Life is all important, (e.g. Shabda is Life, Life is Shabda or some such mumbo jumbo).

His justification, whatever that may be, is actually an indefensible and unethical position that he actually finds himself in, whether he cares to admit it or not. I would also argue that I, or anyone else, didn’t need to be made a prisoner at the hands of a guru or the MP in order to appreciate my own, or another’s life I was already doing that.

The cost of a life, how much is that worth, that is if it’s not yours? What if it is yours? Look I know that human life is undervalued in the 3rd world, and perhaps overvalued in the West, nonetheless what is cost of that loss of life, and who should pay for having to live these lies? It seems that we do, for the benefit of the education, at least I know that would likely be what Gary would say, or something akin to that.

Life isn't over yet for me, nor am I suffering from self-pity, but I do have some rebuilding to do. My final comments on this is in no small part built on what Mrs. Tobias mentions in one of the videos.

"This isn’t so much about exploitive people vs. naive people, but more like evil people doing this, because it feels evil” – I remember for myself back in 2006, after I read the book “Influence” by Cialdini and had come to the same conclusion, that the effect was evil in impact and feeling. Mrs. Tobias merely repeated what I had already come to see and believe on my own. I could see and feel the effect and impact for myself.

Mrs. Tobias goes on to say, “These people are destroyers, not just interested in control, money, sex or whatever, they don’t care if they destroy the person they exploit. That can be very hard to acknowledge, for oneself to accept, especially for good people”
-- She goes onto say that these people suffer from Anti-Social Personality Disorder, these people have no conscience. They potentially makeup 3% of the male population and 1% of the female population. Evil people do exist in the world and we all can be taken in by their species arguments and their initial charming manners.

A final quote from Mrs. Tobias’s video that warrants being put here I believe is…“be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”
 
Old 12-19-2009, 11:00 PM
 
1,628 posts, read 4,027,595 times
Reputation: 541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Kicking View Post
So if it smells like a fish, tastes like a fish and looks like fish then it is more than likely it’s a fish.
I love this quote, although I would state it a bit more crudely...

substituting fish for...

well, a Cheech and Chong routine comes to mind.

{Humor is good}
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