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Old 08-11-2010, 12:23 AM
 
268 posts, read 266,092 times
Reputation: 126

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Thanks for answering my questions above about the initiate reports and "sound", Timothy. Your answers are based on the understanding you have from the MP books and that's great. I would just say that the MP books do not represent truth. But I realize that as a chela they probably do for you.

One of the many things that popped out to me as I started reading MP Volume 1 was the way Gary describes his teachings as having the "stamp of approval" from God. Excuse my bluntness, but that's f-ing absurd. What religion DOESN'T say they have God's stamp of approval? Doesn't "light and sound" (let alone MP) deserve the same scrutiny that other religious teachings do? For example you and I would agree that the bible was written by man and all religions are man's creation. Do you agree that the light and sound teachings are also man's creation, and therefore they are subject to the same problems? For instance, it's ludicrous to me that "God" would set up some facocta system where you can only reach him through some other guy. The "creators" of the light and sound teachings were accustomed to gurus in their culture, so that's how it was taught. Maybe the original requirement of a human intermediary was a well-intended "dumbing down" (so to speak) for the masses who they thought wouldn't be able to grasp a direct connection with the divine.

As far as the filtered sound thing as opposed to the true "Audible Life Stream", well that's just more of the same "we've got the exclusive connection to God" thing. No person knows what another has experienced, whether it's "parasitic entities from the astral plane preying on the naive" or other such speculation.

All I know is that my inner experiences answered every question I'd ever had about "God" and since then I've felt absolutely no need to "seek" further. I don't define that in terms of levels, or kindergarten through 12th grade, or self-realization vs. God-realization or anything like that. Again, those ideas are all constructed by man to address some human need for organizing and creating hierarchies.

If it makes chelas feel better to think they're a 6 or a 9 as opposed to a 2, or if it makes them happy to believe I'm in kindergarten or even pre-school, more power to them. They're simply buying into an illusion that appeals to them. Great! But the bottom line is that Gary Olsen is not the "word made flesh" and it's very sad to me that some are spending their lifetime believing that.

 
Old 08-11-2010, 10:48 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,881 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Well, I appreciate the humility you've expressed Timothy. Frankly I am curious to find out what you might come up with to justify believing in Gary Olsen as a sat guru. Could there be something new we haven't heard before?
This "humility" you speak of is born of bashing my head into a wall without ceasing, so I've learned to not make assumptions or criticize another when I don't know the whole truth myself. It's not really humility, just caution and deference. As for justifying belief, I can only justify it to myself. As this board is populated with people that have already rejected it or dismiss it regardless and I have said I'm not interested in arguing, I won't try to justify it to anyone else. If what I wanted was for the guru to do everything for me I would have chosen something else, but I wanted to take part in the struggle for myself. No one should believe he's what he says he is simply because he says it. That's like me saying I'm the Hamburglar. Of course you can't believe it. Even if I could lay every postulate out and show the proof for each in a scientific manner I still wouldn't because I'm respecting the foundational energy of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
So far we've got:
1) The teachings work for me, I'm experiencing real results, etc. etc.
Of course that's the same thing as a child believing in the tooth fairy. The kid could say "But when I put my tooth under my pillow, there was money there the next morning - so the tooth fairy must be real!"

With MP it's "But just like Gary said, I experienced a result when I inquired within", or "He appeared to me in a dream/vision just like he said he would!" or "My consciouness is expanding! He must be real!"

What the kid and the chela have in common is connecting the result to what they were told was the "cause". We know that in reality the parents placed the money under the pillow, and we also know that the chela's experiences came from inside themselves through their own efforts with absolutely no connection to the imaginary MP tooth fairy equivalent "Garji".
They are working for me. This is going back to the discussion on the assumption that "spiritual progress" is resultant from the guru's influence instead of biological changes and self-won progress without guru, is it not? It very well could be that the change I've experienced is solely attributable to my own desire to progress/ascend, etc. I have no rational way of knowing, as the variable of the guru has been in my life. If I could turn back time and do it all again, I could have basis of comparison but as I am not a time traveler and have no access to a twin in a parallel dimension I just can't say personally. That's just something people will have to decide for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
2) There are few light and sound masters to choose from, and I prefer a "westernized" guru. Plus, Gary hasn't done anything to me personally.
I actually investigated the Adi Da Samraj group in Virginia before coming to MP as well as looked at the Paramahansa group and the TM folks in Iowa, as well as an intentional community centered around the Urantia Book, but thought that was too focused on the leader for my taste. None of them felt right for me and I was left to find the teacher I was looking for. I actually had never heard of any of the L&S masters in India or derived from Eckankar, MSIA, etc until I first heard it on a tape in MP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
To part one of that, I would just ask if eating a steak is really more important than your spiritual life? If someone would rather be able to eat meat than follow an authentic kind and humble guru, then yikes, what can I say. And part two is somewhat the same thing as being in Nazi Germany and content with Jews being gassed as long as you are safe in your bed at night. Okay that's more than a bit melodramatic but you get the point.
I tried being a vegetarian and it just felt like phony morality to me. I much prefer a BLT to a steak, anyway. I honestly don't care at all about vows of vegetarianism, though I do recognize the practical benefits, from better health, higher life energy, savings in food, gas, soil, environmental concerns, etc. I actually admire people that have the constancy and discipline to hold to the vows due in no small part to how difficult it is to eat out as a veg.

As far as the comparison between apathy of local Germans to the Jewish concentration camps and the apparent hands-off approach of current students toward formers who have stories of abuse, emotional trauma, etc...What can I say? To those who don't personally know the affected, if it's ever heard at all, it seems unsubstantiated rumor. Now I'm not saying what has been said here isn't true - don't misunderstand. All I'm saying is that these personalities here aren't known to me so I don't know the claims to be true...not to mention the fact that emotional drama is so prevalent that an honest, objective view of the situation becomes impossible. Again, not saying anything negative about anyone, just saying I have no way to know and if I don't know and I continue to find benefit with my guru in the meantime, it's illogical for me to turn on him. I'm sure it's the same for the lurkers that don't know the affected personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
3) It's not a cult, it's doesn't cost much, and whatever the complaints are do not represent my experience. There is no proof of harm, only people who didn't follow the teachings correctly and idealized their guru. Even if Gary's a fraud, it won't bother me because he's just a man.
Depends on how you define a cult. Of course we all have our own definitions based on our prejudices. To me, $30/month is radically cheaper than I ever spent on books, meetings, videos, travel expenses on all the other stuff I did before MP. So even if you buy books on rhetoric or psychology or poetry or biographies of other social/philosophical luminaries, you're still spending the same if not more. Also I recognize that having a monthly fee keeps me from jumping off the edge to go live like a hermit, like I have the tendency to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
So I'm lumping a lot together there, but let's see...MasterPath IS a cult according to the most well known and well respected cult experts (Steven Hassan, Rick Ross, and others). It IS a cult according to former members. It IS a cult according to most cult tests and criteria. There IS proof of harm, it's on this thread (review and repeat if necessary). And if you don't care if Gary's a fraud, then why do you bother with the whole "Garji" charade?
I would hope the cult expert would define it a cult. Kind of expected, isn't it? And I do recognize it does meet over half of the things on that checklist brought up earlier in the thread, though I would of course differ on the explanation for why, but you old timers know what I'd say anyway. So I won't bother. There's reason to reject it if that is your expectation; there's reason to support it if it fits your mold. It goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
I'm getting lazy now, I could say a lot more about that but it's a start. The others here will be able to offer more than I ever could. I will add that in recent months I have read a lot of the MP materials, and also some Radha Soami and Eckankar, so I'm a little more well-versed in the concepts and lingo than I was when I first began posting here. I've also formed opinions about light and sound teachings in general, which I will probably post about at some point. But right now the focus is simply on Gary and how it could possibly be believed that he is what he claims.
What you believe and how it differs from what I do is something that is fine for both of us. I have absolutely no contention with your beliefs. Due to this thread, actually, I went back to reread JPJ's "Path of the Masters", so I'm glad you're taking an educated view of this instead of just burning forests down. Shows your character. I myself have only gotten a couple chapters into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
A few more quickies that I have asked of other chelas here:

What did you do to prepare for the apocalypse in 2006 (bird flu) and did you not find something terribly wrong with that whole boondoggle?

Do you believe Gary's ridiculous contention that chelas can liquidate their karma by paying dues and donating money?

Do you know Gary Olsen, have you ever met him outside of "darshan" line?

More to come...I only just now noticed that you've posted again.
Well again because of this thread, I listened to the seminar about that, again and I wrote down some of the things said that I didn't see anyone type here. Things like:
"Can we talk about this without anyone freaking out?"
"It may not even hit - I stress that" and my paraphrased quote:
It's a high privelege to get a human body...it's only in a human body can we come to know God...losing it would be a shame, literally.

My take on the stories of the people that went way off the deep end...they listened to some of what he said instead of all of it. I personally got a few bags of rice and about a dozen cans of beans, asked my apartment manager how she would do the rent, and bought face masks (1 case). I looked up a map of town and noted where rivers, drainage ditches, and exits out of town were and made a plan if I needed water or wanted to leave. But I never sold anything or moved in with others. I just looked at it like I thought he presented it - a warning for all to prepare for either bird flue, earthquake, tornado, food shortage, utility outages, etc. What I found wrong about the situation was people allowing their fear to bury their reason and abandon their mind to just trust without thought of common sense. To my ear it was not "Sell everything and go nuts" but "It would be good to have some supplies and provisions in case of anything, especially bird flu, since the WHO said it will probably hit.

For dues being karma...if people have tons of money because they invested karma I don't see why money given to what I believe is the Master is inconsistent with that. I recognize not everyone will have that view but even if you follow the stuff about "Law of Abundance" and "The Secret" you believe money is the result of focused attention on its presence. Karma I believe is defined in MP as a limited viewpoint or Engram, so in that light, it could be. However I am in complete agreement that $400,000 is not equal to the same proportion of karma. He has said before that a donation will not get you an initiation quicker. I myself have donated $84 because for 4 months I was on half-dues because I didn't have the money, so I gave back that $60 I didn't have to pay, plus $24 because i felt like it, the next year. I did get that form letter earlier referenced.

I have never personally met Gary or Joy outside of darshan and have no experience with him personally outside the seminar context. I have spent an hour with Dennis and found him a very interesting fellow - very interesting guy but very quiet, too.

Edited to correct stupid spelling mistake.
 
Old 08-11-2010, 11:42 PM
 
7 posts, read 5,881 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Thanks for answering my questions above about the initiate reports and "sound", Timothy. Your answers are based on the understanding you have from the MP books and that's great. I would just say that the MP books do not represent truth. But I realize that as a chela they probably do for you.
My pleasure, Violet11. Thanks for the civility; I appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
One of the many things that popped out to me as I started reading MP Volume 1 was the way Gary describes his teachings as having the "stamp of approval" from God. Excuse my bluntness, but that's f-ing absurd. What religion DOESN'T say they have God's stamp of approval? Doesn't "light and sound" (let alone MP) deserve the same scrutiny that other religious teachings do?
Perhaps you could supply the reference for that. I'm having problems finding where he said his teachings had the stamp of approval from God. Sure, all religions say that. Any doctrine deserves scrutiny, including mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
For example you and I would agree that the bible was written by man and all religions are man's creation. Do you agree that the light and sound teachings are also man's creation, and therefore they are subject to the same problems? For instance, it's ludicrous to me that "God" would set up some facocta system where you can only reach him through some other guy. The "creators" of the light and sound teachings were accustomed to gurus in their culture, so that's how it was taught. Maybe the original requirement of a human intermediary was a well-intended "dumbing down" (so to speak) for the masses who they thought wouldn't be able to grasp a direct connection with the divine.
The bible was written (and rewritten...) by man, yes, and all religions are man's creation. Being that the L&S paths all have a master and they all claim to have communion with God and are the ones forming the structure of their teachings, sure, you could say even L&S paths are man's creations. Which is ironic, because if God did directly create a path, I don't think man would be able to relate and if we decided to ditch all directives, then we would be making our own man-made paths. I just don't see how we could have a path made for man by any but man. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. Could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
As far as the filtered sound thing as opposed to the true "Audible Life Stream", well that's just more of the same "we've got the exclusive connection to God" thing. No person knows what another has experienced, whether it's "parasitic entities from the astral plane preying on the naive" or other such speculation.
That's not my standpoint, personally. I don't think only L&S folks have connection to God. I myself don't, currently, but the teachings do state (again correct me if I'm wrong, anybody) that only the Sound can take you above duality...or Parbrahm, where I'm told Paramahansa Yogananda resides. I've read many times that there are many paths and people who go through Christ Consciousness, Illumination, Cosmic Consciousness, and the assorted Buddhist concepts like Nirvana, Nirvikalpa, etc. That in no way implies a monopoly on God, just the levels beyond those traditional attainments. I hope I haven't in any way disparaged any person's conviction to go their own way. I think that's Fab...I really do.

My comment about Astral entities can be verified by many others not on a L&S path, if you're interested. There are many Astral surfers that can affirm this outside of a L&S context. I have a few of my own experiences dealing with "other worldlies" so either I'm schizo, malnourished, imbalanced, or overly imaginative, maybe all those other thousands that have mentioned them are right, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
All I know is that my inner experiences answered every question I'd ever had about "God" and since then I've felt absolutely no need to "seek" further.
Isn't that just wonderful? I wish more people could feel settled in their experiences and in their walk. I truly am happy you have something you feel "fits" you and wish nothing but happiness for you as you progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
I don't define that in terms of levels, or kindergarten through 12th grade, or self-realization vs. God-realization or anything like that. Again, those ideas are all constructed by man to address some human need for organizing and creating hierarchies.
I can see your point there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
If it makes chelas feel better to think they're a 6 or a 9 as opposed to a 2, or if it makes them happy to believe I'm in kindergarten or even pre-school, more power to them. They're simply buying into an illusion that appeals to them. Great! But the bottom line is that Gary Olsen is not the "word made flesh" and it's very sad to me that some are spending their lifetime believing that.
Too many people have pride vested in feeling they're at a level. If anyone on my path feels superior to another they're in Whack Job land. You can't hold another in your hand and judge them. That's just plain stupid if you've ever seen or heard another dismiss you as "lesser" then I am sorry. It's been my experience actually to see others as increasingly more equal but on a spectrum of experience. Like the homeless guy we could dismiss as lesser but is really just the same but had different past experiences and has not yet experienced some of ours. Likewise, I look at saints from all religions and see them as more evolved and experienced than I. I'm sure there's someone in your life, too, that you feel to be "wiser" than you. Diminishing this view in a way that lowers another human being is just beyond pathetic - just an ego play for our own vanity, really, from what I see.

Well I have been making mistakes from Day one. Perhaps this is just another in a continuous string. If/when the day comes, then I'll move on like I have many times before. Your views on Gary are yours. I know others share them. I don't - but you know that, already.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 02:49 AM
 
268 posts, read 266,092 times
Reputation: 126
Thank you Timothy. I wish I could be unpredictable right now, but I'm afraid I have to be predictable and say that your answers are all...predictable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
If what I wanted was for the guru to do everything for me I would have chosen something else, but I wanted to take part in the struggle for myself.
What does that mean exactly? Are there actually gurus who do everything for people? I've never heard of such a thing. What struggle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
I actually investigated the Adi Da Samraj group in Virginia before coming to MP as well as looked at the Paramahansa group and the TM folks in Iowa, as well as an intentional community centered around the Urantia Book, but thought that was too focused on the leader for my taste. None of them felt right for me and I was left to find the teacher I was looking for. I actually had never heard of any of the L&S masters in India or derived from Eckankar, MSIA, etc until I first heard it on a tape in MP.
A true "seeker" + Gary = a match made in heaven. Or one of the heaven levels anyway. The observation I have is an obvious one that we've all heard a million times, but I can't help but say it...what do cult experts say about the type of person who is vulnerable to cult influence? I'm not referring just to seeker types as you describe yourself above. Not all chelas are the same so I don't want to paint them with the same brush, but there does seem to be some common underlying traits. Like maybe an exhaustive search for meaning, love, God, guidance, mixed with a dash of addictive personality and/or mental illness for some, and maybe a pinch of self-loathing.

The chapter on substance abuse/addiction in MP Volume 1 raised my eyebrows a lot. That's a rant I'll save for another time, but suffice it to say that Gary knows his target market. One thing I will say is that what he wrote in that chapter definitely contradicts his own pot usage. I'll quote it later if you need me to back that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
All I'm saying is that these personalities here aren't known to me so I don't know the claims to be true...not to mention the fact that emotional drama is so prevalent that an honest, objective view of the situation becomes impossible. Again, not saying anything negative about anyone, just saying I have no way to know and if I don't know and I continue to find benefit with my guru in the meantime, it's illogical for me to turn on him. I'm sure it's the same for the lurkers that don't know the affected personally.
Out of curiousity, how well did you know your goggled CwG friend before he recruited you to attend a "seeker" meeting? You didn't know him personally then either I bet. How was that different for you? And by the way I'm completely dumbfounded as to how such a person would ever be viewed as a spiritual example to follow. Oy vey. Does the Shakespeare wanna-be routine really grab you that hard? It's so transparent. A very sick man if you ask me. But you didn't so I'll shutup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Depends on how you define a cult. Of course we all have our own definitions based on our prejudices. To me, $30/month is radically cheaper than I ever spent on books, meetings, videos, travel expenses on all the other stuff I did before MP. So even if you buy books on rhetoric or psychology or poetry or biographies of other social/philosophical luminaries, you're still spending the same if not more. Also I recognize that having a monthly fee keeps me from jumping off the edge to go live like a hermit, like I have the tendency to.
Okay, I'm not sure why you would be citing affordability as a way of determining if it's a cult or not. I think a lot of cults are actually free of charge. So how cheap a "path" is probably shouldn't be a factor in the definition.

And how exactly does paying dues get you out of the house? Seems like there should be a better way. Do you have a bike? Maybe getting a dog would help? Or maybe you're just saying you'd drop out of society if it wasn't for MP? Honestly I think going off the grid is probably smarter but that's just my opinion of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
I would hope the cult expert would define it a cult. Kind of expected, isn't it? And I do recognize it does meet over half of the things on that checklist brought up earlier in the thread, though I would of course differ on the explanation for why, but you old timers know what I'd say anyway. So I won't bother. There's reason to reject it if that is your expectation; there's reason to support it if it fits your mold. It goes both ways.
Expected why? Are you implying that worthwhile paths will often be considered cults because of a society's innate prejudice? Or just light and sound paths? Because as just one example, I looked up Science of Spirituality and couldn't find any cult accusations, in contrast to MP where more than 90% of what's written is about it being a cult. Now I'm not saying Google searches are the surefire way to define a cult, but I also don't get why you're falling back on the idea of "prejudice" to explain it away. At least you didn't use the word bigot though, so thank you for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Well again because of this thread, I listened to the seminar about that, again and I wrote down some of the things said that I didn't see anyone type here. Things like:
"Can we talk about this without anyone freaking out?"
"It may not even hit - I stress that" and my paraphrased quote:
It's a high privelege to get a human body...it's only in a human body can we come to know God...losing it would be a shame, literally.

My take on the stories of the people that went way off the deep end...they listened to some of what he said instead of all of it. I personally got a few bags of rice and about a dozen cans of beans, asked my apartment manager how she would do the rent, and bought face masks (1 case). I looked up a map of town and noted where rivers, drainage ditches, and exits out of town were and made a plan if I needed water or wanted to leave. But I never sold anything or moved in with others. I just looked at it like I thought he presented it - a warning for all to prepare for either bird flue, earthquake, tornado, food shortage, utility outages, etc. What I found wrong about the situation was people allowing their fear to bury their reason and abandon their mind to just trust without thought of common sense. To my ear it was not "Sell everything and go nuts" but "It would be good to have some supplies and provisions in case of anything, especially bird flu, since the WHO said it will probably hit.
I'm sorry but that was like nails on a chalkboard to read. A little Allan-esque to be pulling out a couple sentences from an hour(+?) long talk in an attempt to discount the rest of the doomsday seminar. We already knew that he threw in a couple of disclaimers. And do you really have that tape? We should all listen if you honestly don't think it wasn't a big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
For dues being karma...if people have tons of money because they invested karma I don't see why money given to what I believe is the Master is inconsistent with that. I recognize not everyone will have that view but even if you follow the stuff about "Law of Abundance" and "The Secret" you believe money is the result of focused attention on its presence. Karma I believe is defined in MP as a limited viewpoint or Engram, so in that light, it could be. However I am in complete agreement that $400,000 is not equal to the same proportion of karma. He has said before that a donation will not get you an initiation quicker. I myself have donated $84 because for 4 months I was on half-dues because I didn't have the money, so I gave back that $60 I didn't have to pay, plus $24 because i felt like it, the next year. I did get that form letter earlier referenced.
*Head exploded* Holy spin. Apparently you're saying that people got rich because they earned good karma, so now they should give the money to Gary Olsen who didn't earn it...so he can do what with it? Wouldn't giving it to someone in need make a hell of a lot more sense? And if the rich person had good enough karma to be rich in this life, then they probably have less karma to pay off using Gary's quid pro quo anyway. Meanwhile the poor people have no money to pay off their bad karma so they're screwed as usual.

Actually I can't even believe I'm entertaining that one with a response. That's really pretty sick, Timothy. With so much suffering and need in the world, it's shameful to even try to justify Gary selling karma burn-off. If you honestly believe that drivel then I'm sort of at a loss.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 04:03 AM
 
138 posts, read 140,502 times
Reputation: 43
Default You beat me to the punch

You know Violet11, I almost responded the same way that you did, but then saw your post.

What this does highlight is yet another issue with the MP and its administrators is that it's insidious reach into people's belief systems, a.k.a. faith, and is important I think to point that out here. You see Timothy has been programming his mind for quite some time now, 6 years without a break, and anything that doesn't fit for him, and his (ahem) "chosen" beliefs, is just another's right to live as they wish instead of applying critical thinking skills, a.k.a. discrimination and discernment into this process of evaluating what others have actually experienced and said about the MP.

Violet11, you will only get a whitewashed set of "predictable" answers since people like this have their minds self-programmed to avoid looking at facts, but instead focus on the fantasy and escapism that the MP offers them. Anything that challenges that is conveniently set aside as simple judgment of these others as having limited consciousness or some such dismissiveness. I am reminded of the "kill them with kindness" response that I have seen many use from the MP, thinking that is enough if they demonstrate this behavior that they are in fact being loving. A tactic of the passive-aggressive narcissist, not that they can see that either, since the narcissistic thinking of the MP is actually programmed into the mind and hence no objectivity can be had on the thinking that one has, since the MP program is now in full swing and any attempt at "reflection" only folds in on itself. Hence no way out, except to have "psychic break" from the teachings, MP code for mentally ill and not a good fit for the teachings of the MP.

There is real break down in this discernment and discrimination on the part of such an individual since they are robbed by the underlying, and not so little lie. That lie being that anytime that a student is "wrong" about something in their life, then the master is blamed, and personal responsibility is thrown back onto the chela as not being aware or conscious, or some other red herring or bait and switch tactic.

The actual ability to discern and discriminate effectively is totally compromised. (Can you hear the sound now? The sound of $$ being sucked out of people's pockets)

By Example: If the master was wrong, what would that really mean? Well it would mean that the whole foundation of the MP, and those who proselytize it are also wrong, and are by extension following a fool, and all that he is selling to them, and that they are programming into their minds is utter crapola.

Some may remember the time when Gary made the statement that who is more at fault the fool, or the one that follows him - again another tactic to mislead, instead of honestly and frankly addressing the issue of being a fool, or potentially being a fool and then duping people out of their hard earned $$ to line his own pockets. (the old adage of follow the money is the directive here). Again this is a baiting tactic, since most people consider themselves to not be foolish but seeking wisdom on such a path, so how could they be a fool or foolish? (typically no one is willing to admit that they are a fool so the whole subject is conveniently swept away and dismissed from the awareness and off on to the next topic without another thought on the matter). A very conniving tactic that Gary uses when he makes that kind of statement.

All of this, you would think anyway, should cause those with even the smallest amount of discernment to be cautious in sending in their dues or contributions let alone follow this charlatan.

There should be no wonder as to why I despise the use of such tactics. I mean I do give Gary credit for being a completely cunning salesman and you are right Violet11 he does know his market segment well, and he preys on and exploits their insecurities and fears.

Friggin predator if there ever was one, and if someone can't see that, then the brainwashing has fully taken hold. The person who does that to themselves and refuses to challenge Gary and his cohorts has left the realm of the living, life and truth (that would be facts folks) and joined the ranks of the soon to be spiritually crippled and walking wounded (as I am sure many can attest to that have already left the MP, and had to march back to sanity).
 
Old 08-12-2010, 04:30 AM
 
268 posts, read 266,092 times
Reputation: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Perhaps you could supply the reference for that. I'm having problems finding where he said his teachings had the stamp of approval from God.
"Only those Teachings that contain the Sound element have the Lord's stamp of approval, which allows for this divine manifestation of the Outer Master, as well as His inner subtle form, the Inner Master." - p.103, The Divine Science of Light and Sound, Volume 1
That's one reference I found quickly, and I think there was at least one other place where the words "stamp of approval" were used. If I find more I will post them.

But while I'm quoting, here are some more "greatest hits" from Gary:
"The chosen Outer Masters are the most spiritually developed humans known; consequently, by virtue of their development they have become the most able and fitting vehicles to channel the Cosmic Spirit. This refers neither to intellectual acuity, nor an archetypal physical image, rather to the height of spiritual perfection..." - p. 94, The Divine Science of Light and Sound, Volume 1

So he's spiritual perfection. I'm not sure which book is funnier, this one or the Sarah Silverman book I'm also reading (which is MEANT to be comedy).

And for any chelas who wish to deny or poo-poo the importance of Gary Olsen the man in the scheme of MasterPath, here is the definition of what Gary Olsen the man is:
Outer Master: The Godman, the Living Master, the Word (Shabda) made flesh; through the connection to the Master's outer form, inner manifestation of the Shabda are made available, thus the most important Master in the Five Bodied complex; works for the liberation of entrapped souls through initiation, taking on karmas, providing outer instruction, and guiding them into Self and God Realization.
Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
The bible was written (and rewritten...) by man, yes, and all religions are man's creation. Being that the L&S paths all have a master and they all claim to have communion with God and are the ones forming the structure of their teachings, sure, you could say even L&S paths are man's creations. Which is ironic, because if God did directly create a path, I don't think man would be able to relate and if we decided to ditch all directives, then we would be making our own man-made paths. I just don't see how we could have a path made for man by any but man. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. Could be.
See, I guess I don't understand the need to have everything be some directed "path". It's life. Live it. I mean, that's what you were sent here to do, for whatever reason. The way I view it is that this whole MP business of trying to avoid future lives or "leaving this place for good" is really a misguided attempt at skipping the whole point of being here in the first place, which was the lessons or the experiences you came for. But whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Too many people have pride vested in feeling they're at a level. If anyone on my path feels superior to another they're in Whack Job land.
Thought I would end the day on something we agree upon.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 04:44 AM
 
268 posts, read 266,092 times
Reputation: 126
Still_Kicking, thank you. Your post is brilliantly written as usual - and reading it really helped me a lot, because my mind is completely blown at the moment. Thank you for bringing me back to a universe that isn't terrifying so I can sleep peacefully.
 
Old 08-12-2010, 01:07 PM
 
268 posts, read 266,092 times
Reputation: 126
Just read your posts again Timothy, to see if a fresh perspective awaited me this morning. Sort of, and I found the need to elucidate on a few more things. I do see more clearly now what Still_Kicking refers to about how chelas fancy themselves kind and loving by giving off the whole "that's wonderful for you" and "everything is as it should be" vibe. With any exposure to the MasterPath materials, one can easily spot condescension shining through. But I know you believe you mean well and won't see it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
.That's not my standpoint, personally. I don't think only L&S folks have connection to God. I myself don't, currently, but the teachings do state (again correct me if I'm wrong, anybody) that only the Sound can take you above duality...or Parbrahm, where I'm told Paramahansa Yogananda resides.
That's funny, I love how there's a claim of knowing where Paramahansa Yogananda "resides" and of course it has to be lower than wherever Gary's headed. Um, Yogananda probably resides there only in the dreams, visions, and illusions of those claiming to have located him. Did they say whether he's chilling with anybody in particular there? Can you find out where Elvis is for me? Seriously though, I could care less if Paramahansa Yogandanda is in Parbraham or Satanville.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
I've read many times that there are many paths and people who go through Christ Consciousness, Illumination, Cosmic Consciousness, and the assorted Buddhist concepts like Nirvana, Nirvikalpa, etc. That in no way implies a monopoly on God, just the levels beyond those traditional attainments. I hope I haven't in any way disparaged any person's conviction to go their own way. I think that's Fab...I really do.
Don't worry, I know how to read between the lines. I get it with the levels and the pretty colored eggs and all that - more centuries-old human interpretations of ranks and structure that are so fun to get attached to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
My comment about Astral entities can be verified by many others not on a L&S path, if you're interested. There are many Astral surfers that can affirm this outside of a L&S context. I have a few of my own experiences dealing with "other worldlies" so either I'm schizo, malnourished, imbalanced, or overly imaginative, maybe all those other thousands that have mentioned them are right, too.
Well I don't recall saying there's no such thing as "astral entities" per se, only that it was silly for one to pretend they can know the experience of others. Even if I could put into words everything that came through me, it would never pass chela inspection as being anything other than "lower world" stuff because Gary Olsen's sparkling twin is not involved.

I'm not sure if you're schizo or malnourished, but having "other worldy" experiences wouldn't be a reason for me to think that of you. Those things aren't foreign to me, so only how you put it all together, remember it, interpret it, tell it, and the entities you associate it with would worry me about you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Isn't that just wonderful? I wish more people could feel settled in their experiences and in their walk. I truly am happy you have something you feel "fits" you and wish nothing but happiness for you as you progress.
And I hope you someday see it too. But I'm not implying I'm superior, only that we're just on different "levels" and mine might be a little bit better. Kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
That's just plain stupid if you've ever seen or heard another dismiss you as "lesser" then I am sorry. It's been my experience actually to see others as increasingly more equal but on a spectrum of experience. Like the homeless guy we could dismiss as lesser but is really just the same but had different past experiences and has not yet experienced some of ours.
Should I take that to mean that those whose path doesn't have the "stamp of approval from the Lord" are the homeless ones? That's cute. By the way, I don't really dismiss the homeless as lower. Most of them suffer from mental illness. Some mental illness hampers people's ability to hold a job or care for themselves. Some mental illness causes people to believe they are God incarnate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Likewise, I look at saints from all religions and see them as more evolved and experienced than I. I'm sure there's someone in your life, too, that you feel to be "wiser" than you. Diminishing this view in a way that lowers another human being is just beyond pathetic - just an ego play for our own vanity, really, from what I see.
Yes, I see a lot of people as wiser than me and respect them tremendously - and they can be found all over this thread. For me wise doesn't need a title like "saint" or "sri". In fact those who've appointed themselves "master" or "saint" aren't nearly as wise in my view, because they're attached to name, fame, pride, vanity, and ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Well I have been making mistakes from Day one. Perhaps this is just another in a continuous string. If/when the day comes, then I'll move on like I have many times before. Your views on Gary are yours. I know others share them. I don't - but you know that, already.
Best of luck Timothy.
 
Old 08-15-2010, 11:06 AM
 
175 posts, read 274,614 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
As for justifying belief, I can only justify it to myself. As this board is populated with people that have already rejected it or dismiss it regardless .... If what I wanted was for the guru to do everything for me I would have chosen something else.... No one should believe he's what he says he is simply because he says it. That's like me saying I'm the Hamburglar. Of course you can't believe it. Even if I could lay every postulate out and show the proof for each in a scientific manner I still wouldn't because I'm respecting the foundational energy of this thread.
This board is populated with people that have seen through the the man-made MP belief system, and thus the fallacy and "foundational energy" (aka: self-appointed guru) of the belief system is strongly dismissed and completely rejected.

Re: laying out every postulate and showing scientific proof for each one... Really? Is that one of those nuggets of "truth" that your "outer master" referenced in a recent seminar...ya know to keep the chelas in a state of glittery-eyed devotion to what they don't yet know?

Re: "respecting the foundational energy of this thread." Oh, thanks for that. That's just "Fab"...Really. Btw, I have zero respect for your "guru" or his man-made outer path. Which is exactly what you are following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
It very well could be that the change I've experienced is solely attributable to my own desire to progress/ascend, etc. I have no rational way of knowing, as the variable of the guru has been in my life.
No rational way of knowing the truth of your own experience....since the variable of the "guru" has been in your life. Yes, that makes perfect sense. Funny, how rational thought seems to be lost in the presence of your "guru." I can relate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
To those who don't personally know the affected, if it's ever heard at all, it seems unsubstantiated rumor..... All I'm saying is that these personalities here aren't known to me so I don't know the claims to be true...not to mention the fact that emotional drama is so prevalent that an honest, objective view of the situation becomes impossible.
Emotional drama? Really? Yes, you really don't know your "guru or his wife" personally, do you. The "drama" as you refer to it on this thread by the "personalities" of the "affected" is child's play in comparison to the prevalence of emotional, mental, and spiritual drama created by your outer leaders. You can call it "rumor." I know it as true. I lived it. And so have others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Well again because of this thread, I listened to the seminar about that, again and I wrote down some of the things said that I didn't see anyone type here. Things like:
"Can we talk about this without anyone freaking out?"
"It may not even hit - I stress that" and my paraphrased quote:
It's a high privelege to get a human body...it's only in a human body can we come to know God...losing it would be a shame, literally.
Why would losing a human body be a shame. Death is a certainty.

Timothy...wouldn't it be a shame to realize that you are devoted to a false guru?


Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
My take on the stories of the people that went way off the deep end...they listened to some of what he said instead of all of it.... I just looked at it like I thought he presented it - a warning for all to prepare for either bird flue, earthquake, tornado, food shortage, utility outages, etc.
So, I guess the first person that went off the deep end was your "guru" himself...followed by his office staff, and closest seva chelas. They did not "listen to some of what he said." They interpreted it exactly as he emphasized it. He did not present it as earthquake, tornado, etc. But I guess if that helps you and other chelas JUSTIFY it, then so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
What I found wrong about the situation was people allowing their fear to bury their reason and abandon their mind to just trust without thought of common sense. To my ear it was not "Sell everything and go nuts" but "It would be good to have some supplies and provisions in case of anything, especially bird flu, since the WHO said it will probably hit.
The fear was incited by your "guru." And MP chelas follow their "guru." Where was your "outer master's" reason and common sense?

Who or what inspired that talk? Have you ever wondered? Probably not. I did the moment I listened to it. But then I had the rare privilege of hearing some of the behind-the-scenes far-out psychic "satsangs" with your guru and those with whom he spends personal time.

Oh, since the WHO says it, you believe it? I've read the WHO website and it would not give me cause to follow your "guru's" outlandish talk. The Bird Flu boondoggle was "out there" and nothing you or others say will ever "balance" it into something that it was not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
I have never personally met Gary or Joy outside of darshan and have no experience with him personally outside the seminar context.
Exactly. Nor will you ever know them personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
My pleasure, Violet11. Thanks for the civility; I appreciate it.

...if God did directly create a path, I don't think man would be able to relate and if we decided to ditch all directives, then we would be making our own man-made paths. I just don't see how we could have a path made for man by any but man.
Isn't that what you are following? A man-made path. When you really "connect" to the "inner path that is indelibly etched in your own body" then, and only then, do you see the illusion of the outer path that you are following. But I do understand that viewpoint is "rejected and dismissed" by those who "believe what your guru says just because he says it is so."

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
....I look at saints from all religions and see them as more evolved and experienced than I. .... just an ego play for our own vanity, really, from what I see.
Define the attributes of a saint? Not from the Radha, Eckankar, MP, Yogananda, etc books or dictionary. From your viewpoint and experience please. Because as far as this "affected personality" is concerned...your description of "just an ego play for vanity" is an apt description of the "One" you follow.

(and btw, do more research on Yogananda...not much difference from all the whackos in whack-job land claiming to be saints and gurus).

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley View Post
Your views on Gary are yours. I know others share them. I don't - but you know that, already.
My view on Gary is no longer based on imagination, belief, or faith. It is based on direct and knowing experience.

Best wishes to you Timothy.

and oh last...re: levels of consciousness....I don't even believe that your master or his wife have reached the 3rd eye, let alone the exalted states they claim to embody and represent. They did what they warn chelas of not doing: they went off and started their own path. Plain and simple. And like Eckankar, Scientology, MSIA...there are plenty of good people who buy and believe what they are selling as absolute truth. It's all hogwash.

Last edited by end_of_faith; 08-15-2010 at 11:45 AM..
 
Old 08-17-2010, 12:38 AM
 
7 posts, read 5,881 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Thank you Timothy. I wish I could be unpredictable right now, but I'm afraid I have to be predictable and say that your answers are all...predictable!
Predictable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
What does that mean exactly? Are there actually gurus who do everything for people? I've never heard of such a thing. What struggle?
Adi Da Samraj has a video entitled: Adi Da Samraj: "I Will Do Everything" shown here:
YouTube - Adi Da Samraj: "I Will Do Everything"
Bhagavan Kalki also offers enlightenment as a gift for humanity, referenced here:Kalki Bhagavan - Sri Kalki Avatar
The struggle is something everyone else that I know has felt. It's plainly obvious to me. Perhaps a refresher on the Bhagavad Gita might help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
A true "seeker" + Gary = a match made in heaven. Or one of the heaven levels anyway. The observation I have is an obvious one that we've all heard a million times, but I can't help but say it...what do cult experts say about the type of person who is vulnerable to cult influence? I'm not referring just to seeker types as you describe yourself above. Not all chelas are the same so I don't want to paint them with the same brush, but there does seem to be some common underlying traits. Like maybe an exhaustive search for meaning, love, God, guidance, mixed with a dash of addictive personality and/or mental illness for some, and maybe a pinch of self-loathing.
Could be explained, in addition to your way, by saying that a system like this is irrelevant to those not abnormally desirous of meaning, love, God, and guidance. An addictive personality...doesn't really apply to me, mental illness is grounds for rejection to start this process, and the self-loathing might be seen as necessary for someone to listen to another and make changes. Without a sense of perpetual self-driven failures, I don't see how a person could honestly accept another's directions with any real honesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
The chapter on substance abuse/addiction in MP Volume 1 raised my eyebrows a lot. That's a rant I'll save for another time, but suffice it to say that Gary knows his target market. One thing I will say is that what he wrote in that chapter definitely contradicts his own pot usage. I'll quote it later if you need me to back that up.
I'm sure you just forgot to type that the Section that chapter is in is titled: "The Hidden Spirituality Reflected within our Worldly Desires and Ideals" and the jist of the chapter was along the lines of how people substitute drugs for the meaningfulness and love and joy they feel to be absent, for which drugs substitute only but temporarily. I'm sure you also forgot to mention how the chapter says that an addicted person is not to be given the binding second initiation and that any second initiate that later decides to engage in chemical excess is rudely reminded that drugs and spirituality don't mix.

Still, this assertion that he does Pot himself is not something I disagree with, as I just don't know. Could be; I don't deny the possibility. It wouldn't surprise me, as most of the people I know do. The idea that a Guru should not ingest drugs for any reason is I think a bit unreasonable. Does anyone care to consider why he might, aside from being a dopehead, himself? I wonder if anyone would consider good reasons in addition to the negative ones that come so easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Out of curiousity, how well did you know your goggled CwG friend before he recruited you to attend a "seeker" meeting? You didn't know him personally then either I bet. How was that different for you? And by the way I'm completely dumbfounded as to how such a person would ever be viewed as a spiritual example to follow. Oy vey. Does the Shakespeare wanna-be routine really grab you that hard? It's so transparent. A very sick man if you ask me. But you didn't so I'll shutup.
It's easy to assume he recruited me but the truth is that I asked him. I think I may have talked with him a grand total of 5-10 times before but never about MP. So I didn't know him that well. Not sure what you mean about how he would be viewed as a "spiritual example" as I definitely didn't look at him in that way. He was just some guy I felt was an avenue to where I wanted to be. He has since become my closest friend and a real firecracker for self-introspection. It's amazing how much he's changed in some years, as have I. We talk about 3 hours once a month on average. He has done more for me than everyone but my parents. If you could put aside the personality and look to what's being said objectively, you might see what I do in him - a man willing to jump through fire to get to his highest expression. It's easy to overlook those with whom you disagree but a real lesson is learned in opening to new viewpoints. He is fantastic at exposing people to new vistas, if they are open to seeing beyond the protective walls built to protect a paranoid ego.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Okay, I'm not sure why you would be citing affordability as a way of determining if it's a cult or not. I think a lot of cults are actually free of charge. So how cheap a "path" is probably shouldn't be a factor in the definition.
I'm not citing affordability =/= cult. I was stating a disagreement that anyone paying for spiritual study was breaking some moral spiritual law. Books cost, conferences cost, anything we use to rise on our own steam costs, just as MP costs. That was my point, entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
And how exactly does paying dues get you out of the house? Seems like there should be a better way. Do you have a bike? Maybe getting a dog would help? Or maybe you're just saying you'd drop out of society if it wasn't for MP? Honestly I think going off the grid is probably smarter but that's just my opinion of course.
Good question that is up to your own discernment. I am one of those who just want to be left alone and be a retired philosopher in my cave out of town. I think money is an artificial control system that is built for the favor of the few on the backs of the massive majority, but that's another discussion. Having to pay dues each month requires me to be involved in normal society and dissuades me from "idealistic spiritual life" in a monastery somewhere. If not for that, no doubt I'd build a life that separated myself from others for the most part leading to a hermit existence that would not be as good for me as being forced to engage in general society. The point is I don't like being in normal, daily situations, preferring to read, think, and imagine. Even if I had a dog and bike, I wouldn't really be that involved with them. Sure I would walk the dog but I wouldn't go to dog parks, use it as a toy to get people's attention, or play frisbee in the yard. Most of the contact I have with people outside of work comes online and that also would be taken away without money. So to be a better human being requires me to engage in normal relations which means normal accomodations, housing, relations, work...in short, being just like everyone else outwardly, to include work for money. Much as I would like to "drop out"...often I feel like an old hippy returned.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Expected why? Are you implying that worthwhile paths will often be considered cults because of a society's innate prejudice? Or just light and sound paths? Because as just one example, I looked up Science of Spirituality and couldn't find any cult accusations, in contrast to MP where more than 90% of what's written is about it being a cult. Now I'm not saying Google searches are the surefire way to define a cult, but I also don't get why you're falling back on the idea of "prejudice" to explain it away. At least you didn't use the word bigot though, so thank you for that.
The idea that a man that makes his living off labeling different systems "cults" and reverses their harmful effects, helping innocent victims return to "normal" life is what I was implying. I'd be interested in knowing the 10% that doesn't label it a cult. I haven't found that.

I never used the word "prejudice" to describe this, but I did say that depending on your point of view you could look at it at least two ways, and I do stand by that. And the "bigot" label...I'd appreciate you not implying that I would ever use such an obviously intentional emotionally divisive word. That's not my scene, to disrespect another through rhetorical dismissal. I am not who has bandied that word about, casually.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
I'm sorry but that was like nails on a chalkboard to read. A little Allan-esque to be pulling out a couple sentences from an hour(+?) long talk in an attempt to discount the rest of the doomsday seminar. We already knew that he threw in a couple of disclaimers. And do you really have that tape? We should all listen if you honestly don't think it wasn't a big deal.
I added context to a dreadfully one-sided and vitriolic depiction of what was said. You're welcome to add more if you want and be sure to copy-paste what was written earlier in the thread, in addition to my submitted quotes and post the whole shebang here so people can read a more accurate account of what was said. I know this is a detractor-thread, and accept that. I just would have thought the idea of "middle road" would continue to be a rational and obvious virtue for those seeking truth, wherever it may be. I would like to think that those who moved into and then away from MP would have kept at least that understanding. Since I saw no one being more fair, I decided to bring in some balance.

I do have that tape, as it has been my custom to have each tape sent when it becomes available after each seminar. If you can get it, listen for yourself and make your own decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
*Head exploded* Holy spin. Apparently you're saying that people got rich because they earned good karma, so now they should give the money to Gary Olsen who didn't earn it...so he can do what with it? Wouldn't giving it to someone in need make a hell of a lot more sense? And if the rich person had good enough karma to be rich in this life, then they probably have less karma to pay off using Gary's quid pro quo anyway. Meanwhile the poor people have no money to pay off their bad karma so they're screwed as usual.
I was quite confused by your response, so went back to read what I wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothybeasley
For dues being karma...if people have tons of money because they invested karma I don't see why money given to what I believe is the Master is inconsistent with that.
"That" referencing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11
Do you believe Gary's ridiculous contention that chelas can liquidate their karma by paying dues and donating money?
If we can define karma as a viewpoint, then the idea that someone would invest their viewpoint in having tons of money is self-apparent. The supposition that I would suggest that rich people should donate megabucks to MP is totally wrong. What I said was that if you can have tons of money as part of your fate karma then donating or paying dues (of their own free will) would be investing in the freeing of attention energies from the need for money and moving more toward getting rich in spiritual imagery. Swapping energy in money for energy in spirit. There's nothing nefarious or manipulative in this assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet11 View Post
Actually I can't even believe I'm entertaining that one with a response. That's really pretty sick, Timothy. With so much suffering and need in the world, it's shameful to even try to justify Gary selling karma burn-off. If you honestly believe that drivel then I'm sort of at a loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 26:11
"For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always."
See also, Mark 14:7 and John 12:8
You could spend your entire lifetime eliminating poverty, illness, violence, famine, and hunger if that's what you want. Has the world ever been what we wish it to be? I am one man. My charity is a spontaneous decision not a moral injunction. I will not bankrupt myself giving to others without regard to triaging need. There are many needs, obviously, but to say that money donated to MP goes only to karma burn off and should be given to charities is I think missing the point of the decision the chela made in that moment. You don't know where the money goes, but I'm sure you have an assumption. I just don't know. But the point is the incremental freeing of perspective through surrender of what once was dear.

God! This post has taken me 2 hours to make. And it's just one of (at this time) 3 I have committed to answering. Let me get caught up before going any further with questions for me, please. It takes me some time.
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