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Unread 07-09-2009, 02:27 PM
 
309 posts, read 334,303 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
If you seriously believe this stuff you are spouting, then, I doubt you would understand my retort.
Ok I understand your doubt, however, why not gamble a bit, cant really hurt, not much to loose.

If you are a fair and open person you would give the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't you?

 
Unread 07-09-2009, 02:35 PM
 
309 posts, read 334,303 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcynic View Post
All of the folks I have ever come across that think they know the true way to 'enlightenment', 'God', 'Heaven', 'Nirvana', etc. have been happy to share ...
In order to have a discussion of apples to apples I have asked several times for you to name one or more people that you believe is a true guru, teacher, authentic spiritual leader so we can look at their methods, etc.

You have always avoided such. Now you again are referencing such folks as proof but yet still fail to provide specifics.

Still waiting
 
Unread 07-09-2009, 03:52 PM
 
309 posts, read 334,303 times
Reputation: 22
On the subject of money and spirituality

I simply do not agree with folks like Mystic-Phd who take the simplistic position $ does not = Spirituality

Those that expose this position have, imho, no basis other their own beliefs and concepts. You are simply pushing your own views and position on spirituality can calling those that dont share your views names, etc.

Yes you can try and shore up your position that famous quote by Julian Johnson but what makes him an authority?

In my reading of the book I see that he writes with what end_of_faith accuses me of; absolute faith, indisputable truth. He offers his view of a view of what constitutes the spiritual world and a masters. It is clear to me and to others over the years, that he is presenting ideas revealed to him by his master, not direct personal experience of the Truth. I believe he is repeating what he was told, or more importantly he was simply repeating what he had absorbed from the teachings, cultural biases, ancient ways of how things were done, etc.

As I've stated before I am a big advocate for evolution and in particular I believe that whatever we call 'enlightenment' really is, that it evolves as well. That the form and manner that we our generation and generations to come will experience the raising of consciousness we call enlightenment, that it will evolve. My, your path to enlightenment is not going to be the same as it was 1000 years ago, 4000 years ago, etc. That the cultural values that overlay much of the practices will change, etc.

None of this is meant as a 'defense' of MP, Gary, or any specific path at all. It simply says why in todays day and age I cannot accept the simplistic view that any spiritual group / person that has any $ is not authentic - especially when the only rational is old mysticism. Again, its not a defense of why Gary or Joy, etc may accept support from MP.

Its also not saying that money is not an indicator of false paths, just that other metrics need to exists. How much focus is put on $, how much intent is centered around revenues, profits, etc. These are harder and more subjective metrics, but it is the only way to approach this that makes sense to me.
 
Unread 07-09-2009, 05:57 PM
 
1,632 posts, read 1,967,697 times
Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
In order to have a discussion of apples to apples I have asked several times for you to name one or more people that you believe is a true guru, teacher, authentic spiritual leader so we can look at their methods, etc.

You have always avoided such. Now you again are referencing such folks as proof but yet still fail to provide specifics.

Still waiting
I have said that there 'may be' a true guru, I do not know of one. That is not germane to the discussion.

I am still waiting for you to answer my hypothetical question. You have avoided that (as well as several other's direct questions) so you do not have a leg to stand on there.

As to the money; it is obvious that all Gary cares about is money. The evidence is overwhelming, he charges for everything! That is a specific fact, one of several I have offered, you just cannot accept that.

How does that advance spirituality?

I know that we will never convince you. I am not trying to, I am pointing to the evidence of the scam that MP is. You conveniently blather on in your inimitable way and that bolsters my viewpoint. I thank you for that.

If you had any guts you would answer my hypothetical and then you would take a real position, but you are incapable of that.

I have been digging, literally at one point, and have uncovered some inside info...

The direction to 'discreetly dispose' of MP materials for instance. How can you explain that?

The price list for all the materials including photos is just appalling!

No rational person would not consider that at least a reason to question Gary's motivation, yet you continue to spew the company line of MP.

I actually feel sorry for you, in a way. On the other hand it is sheep like you that drank Jim Jones' Kool-Aid, and I have no sympathy for the adults that did that.

The bad thing is they had their kids do it too. That is why I continue to get the word out that MP is a scam to be kept away from. I am just one of many that sees MP and Gary and Joy for what they are, and eventually more and more folks will see it too.

Last edited by deepcynic; 07-09-2009 at 06:06 PM..
 
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:04 PM
 
309 posts, read 334,303 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcynic View Post
I have said that there 'may be' a true guru, I do not know of one. That is not germane to the discussion.
Not germane? From this vantage point you are presenting judgments about true master this, real master that - yet all we have to go by is your internal view - which we know is at best deeply cynical of such spiritual subjects, and in worst shows bigot, judgmental and negative behaviors

Its really telling, germane, to me that you cant point to a single example of a spiritual path that you don't find to be a false, money grubbing, bull**** spirituality.

You are only seeing evidence because you have already judged, to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail. To a deeply cynical person your going to see what you expect.

IMHO You've not 'made' you case, you have just shown your biases, which isnt a slam, just a fact. There is no proof that Gary just cares about money. Not to me. I see all kinds of evidence that the organization makes money but money, revenues, profit etc are not the central focus or even close. I find the pricing reasonable and fair.

Of course you can, have, call me stupid, blind and ignorant etc for not sharing your view, but I'm old enough and seen enough of the world to make my own decision about what an organization focused on profit, expanding its customer base etc would look like.

>>>The direction to 'discreetly dispose' of MP materials for instance. How can you explain that?

I can explain that but it doesn't matter, I understand the rational behind it and support it. The fact that you don't get it and read only cynical motives is just a factor of your view.

>>>No rational person would not consider that at least a reason to question Gary's motivation, yet you continue to spew the company line of MP.

You are not an example of a rational person. Perhaps you are a rational, deeply cynical and judgmental person - but lets not give yourself to much credit.

>>>I am just one of many that sees MP and Gary and Joy for what they are,

Well technically you are just one of many that see what they expect through your biases and filters. Most of your conclusions are and 'proofs' are simply conjectures - your guessing at someones intent, discounting things you don't understand etc.

Which is all fine, I don't care to try an convince you, I'm just pointing out the facts of the matter.
 
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:23 PM
 
1,632 posts, read 1,967,697 times
Reputation: 517
I don't care that you buy the BS that Gary has concocted, I already said that.

You have not pointed out any facts, I have.

Gary and Joy charge exorbitant funds for virtually all of their material, that is a fact.

You still refuse to answer a simple hypothetical question, why is that?

Are you afraid of the answer?

No matter, others that have read the question have answered it for themselves.

I know of no living examples of a spiritual teacher that I could endorse, but it really does not matter.

If you insist on frame of reference, my choice would be Jesus Christ, or at least the filtered version of what is generally believed to be his teachings. He did not charge for his teachings.
 
Unread 07-10-2009, 04:01 AM
 
Location: USA
4,983 posts, read 4,809,067 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan1015 View Post
Is this a general statement about Gurus and Teachers or did you mean specifically Sri Gary? Any self-proclaimed know-it-all.

It sounds as if you are making a general statement that none of us knows anything more then another - when it comes to matters of spirituality. Exactly, because no one does. Anyone can make statements, but no one can back up this spiritual stuff.

As in we dont 'need' teachers or gurus or spiritual teachers because the truth is inside us all. Truth? The universe just is. There is a lot of peace in acknowledging that and stopping the crazy racheted up dance.

Is that what you meant?


Which raises the other question what kind of 'knowledge' are you referring to?
Carpentry, animal husbandry, farming, sant shabda yoga, etc?
Knowledge of a god or gods. Knowledge of an after life.
 
Unread 07-10-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: CO
1,388 posts, read 2,242,887 times
Reputation: 723
I never expected the thread to blow up like this, but it's created some vigourous debate, with good points made by all.

From my outsider point of view, I see this as a clever business venture that has made one person a lot of money, and along the way has probably given some of the members some sense of enlightenment or happiness, some feeling indifferent, and still others feeling just plain misled/cheated.

You just can't satisfy all the people all the time, and everybody is left to create their own expectations and draw their own conclusions. This is good...it means the brain is still functioning.

My $.02:

Nothing has impacted me personally, but...

If Gary were truly a saint, he wouldn't be charging money for any of this. Perhaps donations would be suggested to cover his company costs for reproducing/mailing his (plagiarized?) "teachings" - the cheap pamphlets and cassette tapes. Then there are the glamour shots and other pictures, of course. The website is pretty uninspiring and 'amateur' as well. For all the money he's making, it sure isn't going toward his materials. Hmmmmm...

I'd think one would be growing a following through honesty and openness, not through secrecy and mystery. Some have stated that when they leave, there is doomsaying and negativity - is that from Gary himself, or just aspiring chelas who feel the need to criticize those who aren't buying what he's selling? In any form of religion, there are various levels of devotion. I just hope not to read about any MP believers donning purple hoods and purple Nikes the next time a comet comes around....

At the end of the day, I think it's all pretty harmless and somewhat amusing. This 'light and sound' thing is just another new-age for-profit business venture that draws people in, perhaps they are in a rough spot in life, or they're disillusioned with traditional forms of organized religion, etc.

The whole 'Fight Club' aspect to it (i.e. the first rule of Fight Club: nobody talks about Fight Club) is pretty funny, but that's part of the draw - that you are part of a very, very, very, very secret special thing....just keep sending money and don't talk about it to anybody...LOL.

I think Gary tries to keep it all a big secret, because the more people become aware outside of the 'family', the more things will be called into question and the more he will be expected to answer for it, and then we'll all know what it's about. For now, membership is small, there is not any mainstream press, and the illusion can remain their reality.
 
Unread 07-10-2009, 10:07 AM
 
1,632 posts, read 1,967,697 times
Reputation: 517
nebulous1, allan just talks in circles. He cannot face the facts.

He does show all the readers here how totally deluded some followers of MP can be.
 
Unread 07-10-2009, 01:13 PM
 
309 posts, read 334,303 times
Reputation: 22
>>If Gary were truly a saint, he wouldn't be charging money for any of this.

Firstly, there is some need for definition. I don't know if Gary is a Saint. What is saint? Its Christian is it not? Using the definitions from Wikipedia

---A saint (from the Latin sanctus) is a human being who is believed to have been 'called' to holiness or has, consciously or unconsciously, fulfilled the criteria set for sainthood by a religious institution.

What I care about is if Sri Gary is a teacher, a true guru, or Sat Guru - again from Wikipedia

---Satguru or Sadguru (Sanskrit: सदगुरू) means true guru. The term distinguishes itself from other forms of gurus, such as musical instructors, scriptural teachers, parents, and so on. The satguru is a title given specifically only to an enlightened rishi/sant whose life's purpose is to guide initiated shishya along the spiritual path, the summation of which is the realization of the Self through realization of the God.

I bolded part of the above. Sri Gary is a teaching me, I am learning and experiencing things, the more I follow his instructions (guru bakti) the more the experience is unfolding

In my book that at least makes him a guru, a spiritual teacher, and so far an effective one for me.

If you all feel the monthly dues should be $10 not $30, or a picture should be $8.95 not $25, thats all fine. Don't sign up, don't listen, follow another path. (Though personally I would advocate you follow something spiritual - the world needs us all to raise our consciousness)

I like the current sites simplicity, I like that fact that it is not a recruitment vehicle. If it doesn't grab or interest you, thats just fine.

See you want to find flaws and things to critique, the website isn't slick and special enough - you'll find flaws.

Just like your idiotic allusions to secrecy, family, etc. You have all of this thread, statements from current former students that there is no 'family' there are no secrets, there is no cult group where all of us students 'stick together' forsake the outside world - thats complete trash.

Yet you insist instead to just continue to push your agenda, thats not ignorance, as in just don't know, thats blinded bigotry where you seem to just here and see what you want to.

Like I said, your welcomed to your opinion, be it well founded and studied or ignorant and biased. I am also welcomed to challenge you, to offer alternative views and if needed to point out lies and untruths.

>>I just hope not to read about any MP believers donning purple hoods and purple Nikes the next time a comet comes around....

See, more of the same horsepucky. I would love to just chalk it up to you don't get it, don't understand. But its deeper then that as you choose to continue to see only what you want. Please show me the evidence of such a cultish, insulated, peopel who don't think for themselves?

MP chelas come in all shapes and sizes and I suspect that within that group there are some that would be the type of followers to believe such instructions from their cult leader. For the most part I've found the bulk of MP students to be smart, free thinking individuals. Certainly people with deeper critical thinking skills then the bulk of the folks here.


>>>This 'light and sound' thing is just another new-age for-profit business

Again, shows your ignorance and readiness to judge that which you don't frankly know **** about. Nothing 'new-age' about that teaching, though Id like you to define New Age. A term that has no single definition and is often used by bigots to discount something that doesn't fit their view of the spirit.

So, perhaps L&S is New Age, I'll await your definition of that term first.


I like the membership, I like each month sitting down and deciding if my hearts into this, if I want to continue, etc. I find it extremely more honest then the donation bull**** of the church, and tithing that is hardly volunteer, the peer pressure, the pressure form clergy, the fact that I am sinning if I don't tithe, this is fraudulently fleecing the flock in my opinion

So again, I am fine with membership approach for this organization. Your welcomed to your opinion of course, but it is just that an opinion - you have no more basis for proof then I do as to what is authentic spiritual flow of money energy around a teacher and the organization around a teacher.

Like I said I like the simplicity, directness and openess of it, versus the manipulative bullcrap I see in other 'honest' religions.

But I will ask you the same, can you point to any gurus, teachers who you feel are no shams? I would like to study the money flow around them.
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