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This is NOT about IF Todd is really doing this...(he is).
I'm trying to find out just how submissive the next Vice President may be.....Americans deserve to know. And don't bring up the Clintons again...if TODD was the candidate I wouldn't have a question...but it's the other way around now and I don't want a woman who defers to her husband's wishes concerning MY country.
First, if you don't mind, please refrain from posting your comments within my quote, wrap the text around what you would like to address as it then makes it easier for me to respond since the whole quoted portion on your post won't transfer over when I try to quote you. Thank you.
Now... I am not speaking in circles, I am speaking very clearly and trying to explain it in a simple manner. You keep going around in circles of what I say and remain stuck on this word "need" which I have repeatedly said it is not about a "need" as in a woman "needs" to have a man...
The woman does not "need" to have a man over her. It is, however, a biblical principle. It is how God designed it. For the Christian, at least most Christians as there are some that struggle with the concept as well, this is not difficult to understand. The question of equality is not even there because it is clear in scripture that we are created equally, that God pours out His spirit, His grace, His mercy upon both man and woman equally. That He listens to our prayers equally, both man and woman. And that God is NO respector of person and does not favor a gender over the other. His word says He will pour out His spirit among His sons AND daughters. Not just sons. The kingdom is available to His son's AND daughters, not just sons. It is clear that in God's eyes we are equal. It is obvious that in the legal terms of this world, we are equal. Equality is not the issue here.
You are stuck and focused on believing that if a woman see's her husband as the "head" of their home, she in some sense is stating that she is less than an equal human being than he is, less than an equal contributor to the home than he is. This is just so not the case when one looks at that "headship" in the biblical sense.
He is over his wife in the initiative taken, in her deferring to his initiative in different area's such as leading the family in prayer, in devotions etc. When it comes to making decisions they make them together, however, there are times when a compromise or full agreement may not be reached yet a decision still needs to be made. In such cases, IF the man truly is a man of God and exhibits all those things I mentioned above and he truly has the full trust of his wife that he will decide in the direction that is best for the family as a whole, she then defer's to him for the final decision.
However, as I stated, IF he is a man of God, he will have taken all she has said on it into consideration. He will validate her opinion and her insight into the matter. His decision will not be self-serving or merely to get his way. In fact, his decision may very well be to lean in the direction his wife was leaning in merely because she had some very valid points and he trusts her insight as well. Perhaps it is in an area where she is actually more insightful into, take for example a question of child rearing or discipline. She may be more insightful into the hearts and mind of their children than he is being more focused on the behavior alone. In such case, he may decide more along the lines of her thinking because he recognizes her insight and trusts her judgement.
In other circumstances, he may decide along the lines of what he was thinking, but it is not in a manner that disregarded what his wife's opinion was and she would know this. She then simply trusts the leading he feels in his heart.
I kind of see it as having a tie-breaker in the event that a full compromise can not be reached yet a decision must be made. Without the tie-breaker a decision that needs to be made can run stagnant with each standing firm on their own opinion and not willing to budge. That would not be biblical either. The bible says that a house divided will fall. So finding some middle ground, or derferring to one another in times when it is needed sometimes is the only way to move forward with a decision that needs to be made.
As for a single woman. Again, when applying this principle, I would have to speak as a Christian woman. One who was single as well. The Lord was my husband. My submission was and remains to him first and foremost.
However, if I believe, which I do believe whole heartedly, that God is the provider of my husband in my life. Meaning, that I trust that God has brought him into my life for a reason, that He has joined us together as husband and wife and made us one flesh. If I believe God in all his promises in the bible and I trust in His ways, then I too must trust in this direction that God has given to a married woman. I can not, nor will I, pick and choose which parts of the bible are convinient for me to follow and which I will disregard because I'm too proud.
Now I fall short many times, God is still working in me. But my heart is definately in the right place and it definately seeks to please God above man.
I have explained this concept in as simple terms as I can, the fact that you don't agree with it, can't or won't adopt the idea, does not mean that I have not explained it. I'm just not giving you the explanation you desire nor the opinion you desire which would be to say that yes this is all wrong and no a woman should not this or that or that a man should not be this or that. I'm sorry, but I stand firm on my beliefs and I try very hard not to twist God's word into something that I want it to be for my convinience or to please others. God's word is God's word and it doesn't change just because someone doesn't agree with it.
And about Todd... again, provide me some solid proof from a reliable source and I promise to read it over with an open mind. You say this is something he IS doing, HAS done and you believe will continue to do. I haven't been prevy to any information, short of your claims, that this has been the case, therefore, again, provide me something where I can read up on it and make my own determination on the question as to whether this is a concern or not.
And as for the Clinton comment, again, that was a comment in a different thread, which I will address there at a later time as it was by no way, shape or form made in the context in which you portrayed it to be. But I rather not discuss that on this thread as it detracts from the original OP.
You know... I stepped away to get ready for bed and this stayed on my mind. I had to return to offer a clarification or correction, however, it's wanted to be viewed, but bottom line is I thank God for His Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts and providing conviction I guess when we have not fully expressed His heart.
I say that because I want to correct one thing. While yes, absolutely I am an independant woman who not only believes that she can stand on her own two feet, fully relying upon no man but only God and not only believes it but has done it. And, while I fully believe that I didn't "need" a man in my life, though I desired the companionship of one, when and if God choose to bring one into my life. And, while I fully believe that yes I am a total equal in my relationship and that my husband being a man of God, a spiritual leader in our home, the head of our home, does not remove my being an equal to him.
I correct myself in saying that I didn't need something in terms of His Servant-Leadership. And, to be honest, it doesn't matter much if anyone agree's or doesn't agree with it because as I have stated, it is God, not man, that I need to please. Therefore, as I was preparing for bed, I could feel the Lord speaking to my heart and what I felt next is that my words were not fully demonstrative of the need for my husband to be this Servant-Leader.
I absolutely do need him to be that. God's word clearly states that two are stronger than one and that a three strand cord is not easily broken. That a house divided will fall and that how can two walk together if they not be of one accord. My husband and I are two with God in the middle joining us as one and making us that three strand cord that can not be broken.
How do I need my husband to be the Servant-Leader, because I need to know that His heart seeks the Lord. I need to know that He is a man after God's own heart. I need to know that in the midst of a battle he is right there alongside me fighting the good fight. I knee to know that when I am being attacked by the enemy, when my spirit is heavy, my heart is burdened, my husband can be found on his knee's praying for me or laying face down with his face on the ground seeking God on my behalf.
I need to know that he trusts God with all his heart, his mind, his body and his soul. That he calls out to him in prayer for himself, for me, for our family and for our home. I need to know that he is studying God's word, that if I should have a question or if I am struggling with understanding something, he may offer some insight or together with me seek the Lord for the insight needed.
I need to know that my husband goes before the Lord and petitions him for his family. That he seeks the Lord's will for our lives and that every decision that is made is filtered through prayer and guidance from God. I need to know that I can trust my husband in all these area's and more.
Therefore, yes I do need my husband to be a Servant-Leader. To be Christlike. To view his role, not as a power trip, but in humbleness before the Lord understanding the weight of the responsibility upon his shoulders. I need to know that he can die to himself and love me as Christ loves his church. I need to know that he will seek the best interest for me and for our family, even if it means giving up a selfish desire or "need" to be right.
Yes, I need to know these things, and in knowing these things about my husband, my respect for him grows, my love for him grows, my devotion to him grows and my submission overflows.
Those who are Christian and believe in this biblical principle will probably understand what I have said here, not see it as a "need" in terms of a weakness, but rather in terms of a biblical, spiritual need that is all about strength in the marriage.
Those who are not Christians or who don't necessarily believe in this biblical principle probably will not understand and see it as some sort of weakness or inequality in our relationship. And that's okay. I am not going to argue the point back and forth. I believe I have striven to make the point very clear that it is not about inequality, in as much as my husband and I are absolutely equals. However, it is everything to do with faith, with God, with His commands, His order of things, and the blessings that can fall upon a couple when the follow.
That it all really is about serving one another and that the whole "head" or "leadership" is not about control, manipulation, inequality, but about being more like Christ, who came to serve, not be served, who came to die for His church and as such the wife is to be loved as Christ loved the church.
On that note... I think I'm headed for bed, somehow I feel this conversation with God is not over and quite honestly, I look forward to what else He will reveal to me.
In regards to your question about "who said that?" you can tell by reading the text above that it was obviously me. Calling someone a servant leader seems a little silly when you consider the fact that this so called servant is always going to get his way in this sort of arrangement because whenever a situation arises in which a husband and wife simply cannot agree it's the husband who gets the final say. I truly believe this mentality belongs in the dark ages and is based on ignorance. Being born as a male doesn't automatically instill some greater insight into the brain of this male baby and cause him to grow up with abilities that females can only dream about. The truth of the matter is that the partner in a marriage that happens to have the deeper insight into a particular problem that needs a resolution could be either the husband or the wife and it's highly probable that sometimes the husband would make the wrong decision and sometimes the wife would make the wrong decision because that's human nature.
If I was a woman in a marriage with a man who suddenly took it into his pea brain that he was the man of the house and was always right and I had to submit to his decisions he would feel the powerful impression of a shoe being driven into his behind which would hopefully bring him to his senses.
The first bolded statement has already been refuted in this thread. Why do you keep insisting it must be so when I (and others) have said it is not so? As I stated earlier, it is those who are not in the church who keep perpetuating the model of a domineering husband and weak submissive wife, based on inaccurately interpretting their limited knowledge of scripture.
The latter statement reflects a more accurate description of how any Christian marriage should work from a scriptural point of view. Neither one is right or wrong all the time. Each should consider the other before themselves. There should be discussion and agreement on any issue, understanding that most of the time when there is disagreement there will be compromise, neither one nor the other having their own way. Even if one of them 'gets their way' it is only because the other agrees to it, to maintain agreement and harmony in the relationship. No bitterness or anger or carrying a grudge....just move on because soon enough something else will come down the road that needs to be dealt with.
If men and women are equal in the eyes of The Lord why do SO MANY Christian ministers use the term "obey" to the woman in marriage vows and dont make the husband say it? Just wondering.
If men and women are equal in the eyes of The Lord why do SO MANY Christian ministers use the term "obey" to the woman in marriage vows and dont make the husband say it? Just wondering.
My DH and I both asked my FIL to leave it out of our vows (FIL married us) but he put it in on purpose anyway. You should see my facial expression in the wedding video!! LOL
If men and women are equal in the eyes of The Lord why do SO MANY Christian ministers use the term "obey" to the woman in marriage vows and dont make the husband say it? Just wondering.
Well if we are taking the word "obey" literally then we should go back to the man being the breadwinner and say goodbye to the two-person income. Ladies, stay home.
Way, way back in 1961 when we got married, I committed my first act of insubordination to my H, when I told the preacher during practice to erase that obey part..He did, my little booklet with our wedding vows has that marked out with a notation by the preacher that is was at the brides request..Little did I know at that time how important it was to my H and his family that I be submissive
The first bolded statement has already been refuted in this thread. Why do you keep insisting it must be so when I (and others) have said it is not so?
I don't doubt that there are Christian couples who follow this way of thinking and due to the fact that they care about each other it doesn't result in an unhappy marriage. What I am saying is that if the man has the veto power for lack of a better term when a couple reaches a disagreement then this is not a relationship of equals no matter how pretty of a picture you try to paint. You just can't have it both ways, either a man and wife are really in an equal relationship in which they both have equal authority or else it's not equal. How can you even talk about the concept of equality when a male and female are basically forced to accept a role they have to play that has certain obligations and responsibilities that are different from each other and are supposedly directives from God?
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Calling someone a servant leader seems a little silly when you consider the fact that this so called servant is always going to get his way in this sort of arrangement because whenever a situation arises in which a husband and wife simply cannot agree it's the husband who gets the final say. I truly believe this mentality belongs in the dark ages and is based on ignorance. Being born as a male doesn't automatically instill some greater insight into the brain of this male baby and cause him to grow up with abilities that females can only dream about. The truth of the matter is that the partner in a marriage that happens to have the deeper insight into a particular problem that needs a resolution could be either the husband or the wife and it's highly probable that sometimes the husband would make the wrong decision and sometimes the wife would make the wrong decision because that's human nature. 
You should see my facial expression in the wedding video!! LOL
