God(s), Religion and The Bible... (hell, America, atheist, priest)

[PrettyHateMachine]

This subject has been popping up on different threads throughout the forum and I thought it would be appropriate to dedicate a thread on the subject of God(s), Religion and The Bible.

Let me start out by saying that I am an Atheist. I’m an Atheist because I think that truth can never be assumed. I’m an Atheist for many other reasons, too many too list them all, but will point out a few of them. Some will be more obvious than others:

• I do not believe in God because there is no evidence for the existence of any god or gods, pure and simple.
• I don’t believe that a virgin birth his humanly possible.
• Noah’s Ark – Need I say more?
• There is too much evil in the world to believe in an all-good god- Approximately 30,000 kids die every day of famine and hunger.
• Heaven and Hell- Running the risk of being punished eternally for my opinions sounds absurd to me, and heaven quite frankly sounds a little boring.
• The creation of the earth in 6 or 7 days.
• A talking snake- Again, need I say more?
• The harm being done by religion to women and gays- Women, not so much in America, but the Taliban and etc… you get my drift.
• And the one question I feel strongly about is: How old is the earth according to the Bible?

How old is the earth according to the Bible? Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to the bible earth is 6,420 (-91 / +155) years old, or anywhere from 6,329 to 6,575 years old. If you believe in God, and believe the bible is the word of God, then you must also believe the world is around 6500 years old. Right? That’s fine except we have evidence to the contrary confirming the earth is much older than 7,000 years, much much older.

The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years. The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago.

The dinosaurs ruled the Earth for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. Obviously man did not live side by side with dinosaurs. I would imagine one of the 40 men that wrote the bible would have at least mentioned a T-Rex or a raptor in the scriptures. Yet we do have proof of these animals. The oldest human fossils found in Africa are 195,000 years old. I’m not saying we came from apes. I really don’t know, but we sure didn’t come from a couple who lived in the Garden of Eden.

Shouldn’t these facts disprove the bible in general? No?

I did not start this thread to inflame, offend or enrage. I simply would like honest, challenging, insightful responses, opinions and/or facts, to maybe be enlightened in the process.

Thank you.

[lionking]

PHM,I can't give you proof,or a definitive truth.All I can say is its faith.Im not one to say I know alot,fact is I know little and constantly struggle to keep the faith.Some Christians,would say Im un Christian in some regards,but I keep my faith between a divine spirit,a divine truth not to them.

All I can say,is the universe is a pretty amazing thing,not to mention the Earth,there is some logical sense to it all but what I know most is that love is the supreme gift.

All I can say that opening myself,my life has been better,you can't understand and I can't explain it,its somwthing you just "know".

When I read the bible,I found it had alot of wisdom,it made me think differently.Im not going to say anymore about it than that,to nitpick about certain passages I think is overlooking the general wisdom.One quote that always sticks with me though is "keep your treasures in heaven,not on Earth".Life,love,family and friends are true wealth,everything else is icing on the cake.

As far as God in American politics and ideals,I think its important to place rights from above,if you put rights as something that men give to men,or government gives to people,you are bound to loose them at some point.

BTW,most of my life I never gave God or the bible much thought,at some point I opened myself in hard times and my life got better.Today you might be a athiest,tommorrow you never know.Now I try to say thanks in good times,somehow someway things have worked out.Dont know the mysteries of the beyond but I bet somehow someway it will all work out too.

[funfaler]

PHM,

I find your post intriguing. You have brought up many issues with religion and seem to be essentially asking for "proof" of God, is that correct?

I am interested to know, to what level of proof would it take for you to at least consider the possibility? Can you give us one thing, or one question, that if answered would make you say to yourself, "there might be a chance"?

[mark6052]

For an Athiest you seem to study the Bible alot. Not to sure of yourself if you have to keep reinforceing. But you use the same old talking points, God lets little children die, therfore he cant be. Why havent you studied the answers to your Questions? This is easy, you dont believe, only by dying will tell. You go first, please. Since your life here is only by a mathematical FLUKE. Oh yeah, scientists say from absolute darkness, in complete nothingness, before time it self. then one day for an unknown reason there was this reaction. an explosion, which became light. sound familiar? a mathematical fluke? OKay

[PrettyHateMachine]

Originally Posted by lionking

PHM,I can't give you proof,or a definitive truth.All I can say is its faith.Im not one to say I know alot,fact is I know little and constantly struggle to keep the faith.Some Christians,would say Im un Christian in some regards,but I keep my faith between a divine spirit,a divine truth not to them.

All I can say,is the universe is a pretty amazing thing,not to mention the Earth,there is some logical sense to it all but what I know most is that love is the supreme gift.

All I can say that opening myself,my life has been better,you can't understand and I can't explain it,its somwthing you just "know".

When I read the bible,I found it had alot of wisdom,it made me think differently.Im not going to say anymore about it than that,to nitpick about certain passages I think is overlooking the general wisdom.One quote that always sticks with me though is "keep your treasures in heaven,not on Earth".Life,love,family and friends are true wealth,everything else is icing on the cake.

As far as God in American politics and ideals,I think its important to place rights from above,if you put rights as something that men give to men,or government gives to people,you are bound to loose them at some point.

BTW,most of my life I never gave God or the bible much thought,at some point I opened myself in hard times and my life got better.Today you might be a athiest,tommorrow you never know.Now I try to say thanks in good times,somehow someway things have worked out.Dont know the mysteries of the beyond but I bet somehow someway it will all work out too.

That's the most honest response I've heard from a believer, ever. Thanks!

[PrettyHateMachine]

Originally Posted by funfaler

PHM,

I find your post intriguing. You have brought up many issues with religion and seem to be essentially asking for "proof" of God, is that correct?

I am interested to know, to what level of proof would it take for you to at least consider the possibility? Can you give us one thing, or one question, that if answered would make you say to yourself, "there might be a chance"?

Him appearing to me is the only proof I'll take. Don't get me wrong, if there was a God, the loving God mentioned in the bible, I would welcome him with open arms. But I know he doesn't exist. Look around.

[PrettyHateMachine]

Originally Posted by mark6052

For an Athiest you seem to study the Bible alot. Not to sure of yourself if you have to keep reinforceing. But you use the same old talking points, God lets little children die, therfore he cant be. Why havent you studied the answers to your Questions? This is easy, you dont believe, only by dying will tell. You go first, please. Since your life here is only by a mathematical FLUKE. Oh yeah, scientists say from absolute darkness, in complete nothingness, before time it self. then one day for an unknown reason there was this reaction. an explosion, which became light. sound familiar? a mathematical fluke? OKay

I've studied the bible, I grew up in a religious household. I'm not reinforcing, but merely asking to be challenged. You criticize science but offer no explanation of the questions I posed.

[PrettyHateMachine]

Originally Posted by mark6052

is easy, you dont believe, only by dying will tell. You go first, please. Since your life here is only by a mathematical FLUKE.OKay

Are you asking me to die? Funny those that believe in heaven, are not in a hurry to get there.

Mark6052, I was asking for insightful responses, not hateful ones. Not very Christian of you, was it?

[Mark S.]

I really don't want to get drawn into a 28 page thread, but I did want to give you a few things to think about, since a few of your points seem to be based upon some false assumptions.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• I do not believe in God because there is no evidence for the existence of any god or gods, pure and simple.

That depends upon what evidence you will accept. To some people, seeing their baby's first smile is proof of divinity in the universe. Some see it in the sunset, in birdsong, or listening to Jimi Hendrix. Personally, I wouldn't quibble with any of those.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• I don’t believe that a virgin birth his humanly possible.

Heh. But yeah, that's kind of the point. "Not humanly possible" is a pretty good definition for "miracle," which is what the Virgin Birth claims to be.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• There is too much evil in the world to believe in an all-good god- Approximately 30,000 kids die every day of famine and hunger.

But there is so much good as well, and the nature of evil has been given some pretty good explanations, from Augustine to Plato to St. Thomas Aquinas.

Consider this: Where do you draw the line? What evil is too much evil to negate the existence of God? Murder? Famine? Disease? A toothache? Someone passing gas in an elevator? A fly in my soup?

Nearly ever major religion of which I know even a little has given the nature of evil a lot of thought, and they've come up with some pretty good answers. Again, I suggest you give Thomas Aquinas a try.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• Heaven and Hell- Running the risk of being punished eternally for my opinions sounds absurd to me, and heaven quite frankly sounds a little boring.

That's a VAST over-simplification of even the most strident hellfire-and-brimstone theology. There's more to going to hell to having an incorrect opinion, and no one really knows what heaven is like, so how can it "sound boring?"

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• The creation of the earth in 6 or 7 days.
• A talking snake- Again, need I say more?

You're assuming that every passage in every book of the Bible is meant to be taken as literal fact. Ain't so. You're confusing Fact with Truth.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• The harm being done by religion to women and gays- Women, not so much in America, but the Taliban and etc… you get my drift.

Look at all the harm done to humanity by atheists in the 20th century. Stalin, Mao, the Khmer Rouge, etc. People do bad things. (Again, getting back to the nature of evil.) A Christian or a Muslim committing an evil act no more negates the tenants of their religion than an atheist committing an evil act negates atheism. It's the one thing on which atheism and all major religions agree: People can be pretty nasty to one another sometimes.

To be continued...

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

• And the one question I feel strongly about is: How old is the earth according to the Bible?

The Bible doesn't say. The Bible is not a scientific tome. Again, don't confuse Fact with Truth.

Did you know that the very first scientist to propose the Big Bang theory was a Jesuit priest? And the physicists at the time -- even Albert Einstein -- lambasted him. But when they started checking his math, they figured out his theory was not only sound, but it made more sense than any of the other theories at the time.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

If you believe in God, and believe the bible is the word of God, then you must also believe the world is around 6500 years old. Right?

Wrong. Again, don't confuse Truth with Fact.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

I would imagine one of the 40 men that wrote the bible would have at least mentioned a T-Rex or a raptor in the scriptures.

And they probably would have had they seen them. But the dinosaurs died out several million years before Moses was born. How could he have seen one? The Bible doesn't mention George Washington either, but Washington did exist, and his existence does not disprove the Bible, because the Bible is not a book on American history. Neither is it a book on science.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

I’m not saying we came from apes. I really don’t know, but we sure didn’t come from a couple who lived in the Garden of Eden.

Actually, this is another point on which both science and the Bible agree.

Humans did not descend from chimps or gorillas, no. But we very likely shared a common ancestor. The Bible says that all of humanity descended from one woman. It might surprise you to learn that science confirms this. Thanks to the mapping of the human genome, scientists have proved that every single person on the planet today descended from one woman, who most likely lived in Africa several thousand years ago.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

Shouldn’t these facts disprove the bible in general? No?

No.

Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine

I did not start this thread to inflame, offend or enrage. I simply would like honest, challenging, insightful responses, opinions and/or facts, to maybe be enlightened in the process.

How am I doing so far?

Thanks for raising these points. You're off to a good start. All good questions! Keep asking and keep seeking.