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Old 09-27-2008, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,596,364 times
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One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being? What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had? I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion. Can anyway explain this in layman's terms without quoting the Bible and simply lay out their thoughts in an easy to understand manner?
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Fairfax Station, VA
620 posts, read 926,555 times
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MontanaGuy, when I think of Jesus dying for our sins I think of us not having a chance at salvation (i.e. eternal life) without his sacrifice. I also believe on a fundamental level it shows a truly unconditional love which we as humans do not understand. I, personally, believe that without Jesus dying for our sins we would be faced with damnation...maybe not in the tradiational sense of a hell with the devil and being tortured eternally but we would live a life with no hope and faith. Imagine what that means to you on a personal level. I know for me so much of what I do, what I feel and how I act depends on these two beliefs.

So in my opinion, I do not think Jesus' sacrifice somehow erased the sins of mankind but restored hope and faith to us and an understanding that life is more than what we see. And if we live our lives right and accept the sacrifice of Jesus that we can have eternal life and salvation. But first we have to strip ourselves before God and say YES I am a sinner and please forgive me because I believe we have to acknowledge our sins before we can be redeemed for it. Again, these are just my opinions and interpretations from bible study and church etc.
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:09 PM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
2,178 posts, read 4,532,888 times
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Analyze: Interesting to read something so profound in your own words...never once quoting scripture! Rare indeed, and much appreciated. I have questioned the same "motive" and cause and effect that Montana speaks of and so your reply really got me to thinking. I don't believe one must be a Christian or believe that Jesus died for our sins to have hope and faith. First of all, I don't believe in original sin...I let go of my attempts at Christianity a few years ago and am now...well...not an atheist, maybe a bit agnostc, maybe a bit of a Diest. Who knows? Doesn't really matter, though, because I live a very hope-filled life and I do not fear death at all. I know the energy that is life and spirit and soul (depending on what one prefers to call it) continues on after the body dies. It is definitely more than what we see, as you said. Is that faith?

My point is...I cannot explain it either, Montana...I am as puzzled as you are. Many men died by crucifixion, as Christians believe Jesus did...they did not have a resurrection, as Christians believe Jesus did. It seems to me that it was only a temporary sacrifice on his part, and that he died more for his beliefs at the time. "Sin" is still rampant on earth...I prefer to use the term "bad choices and decisions" and I feel we are responsible for our decisions and choices and will suffer or enjoy the consequences without fear of Hell or promise of Heaven.
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
 
Location: conover nc
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This will be difficult without using scripture.Jesus was the only one in history who was born without sin,lived without sin. Jesus demonstrated his humanity when in agony he prayed
if it is possible may this cup be taken from me. Medical dictionaries describe chromidrosis a state in which intense emotional stress can actually cause the blood vessels to expand so much that they break where they come in contact with the sweat glands and you sweat blood.This is what Jesus went through in Gethsemane.
This cup Jesus spoke of was the divine wrath that Christ would suffer at the Cross as he bore the sins of mankind upon himself. Before Christ there was a way given to cover these sins but it was only temporary, the blood sacrifice of an unblemished animal. Christ was
the ultimate sacrifice. There was no other way for a just God to deal with our sins. Sin must be punished;if God were simply to forgive our sins without judging them, then there would be no justice, no accountability for wrongdoing and God is not truly holy and just. His love provided a way for our salvation. The cross was the only way. Christ was clothed in our sins he became our sins.and on the cross those sins would be judged.He would be the final atoning sacrifice for sin.Christ's perfect righteousness would be given to us. If we believe and only ask. Sin was judged, and God's justice was satisfied. The door of forgiveness and salvation was opened, and Gods love was satisfied. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Last edited by thefer; 09-27-2008 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,031 posts, read 20,882,409 times
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Montana I have no doubt you are sincere in your question. I love what thefer said, she explained it very well. Jesus loves us all so much He was willing to die on that cross for our sins, sins He did not commit so we could live and escape the hell that we really deserve.
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:24 AM
 
7,463 posts, read 7,092,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post


One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins.

I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalyzeThis View Post


we would live a life with no hope and faith.

Imagine what that means to you on a personal level.


Jesus' sacrifice somehow...restored hope and faith to us and an understanding that life is more than what we see.



Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post

Montana I have no doubt you are sincere in your question. I love what thefer said, she explained it very well. Jesus loves us all so much He was willing to die on that cross for our sins, sins He did not commit so we could live and escape the hell that we really deserve.

June is so, so with you on this one, my dear, sweet man!

June has just never gotten it. She finds Analyzethis's and ILNC's responses interesting for a number of reasons: First off, if June ties those two posts together, she cannot help but wonder whether it is sort of like working the equation backwards. In other words, by first accepting the sacrifice that Jesus made, it lends both hope and faith to one's life. In other words: It holds vast meaning. However, if June and Montana are in agreement on this, (and let's face it, folks, while June and Montana are not exclusively like minded in our love and adoration of one another, June would certainly say we're darn close in our thinking process(es) ) then it seems to June that in order for any of this to have real meaning, one must accept, (albiet, almost unconditionally) the implied meaning behind Christ's death and resurrection.

Here's the thing: If June's life (and presumably Montana's life, as well) already have meaning and hope, wherein lies the need for us, (or anyone, for that matter) to need to believe in the saving aspects of what Jesus did? --Because inherently linked into this whole concept is the notion that we are all "sinners." June's just not gettin' that one...She'll willingly admit that as humans we aren't exactly always the nicest bunch of people in our day to day interactions with one another, and that people do "bad things." June does. We all do. But June's having a real hard time believing that human beings are fundamentally bad to the core such that they require, are in need of a "savior" to set us on the "right path."

June, on any given, average day, feels she is on the right path. She doesn't wake up each and every morning thinking what a horrible person ("sinnner") she is, nor does think about mankind that way. (And let's face it: June sees alot of "not nice" stuff that goes on in people's lives on a daily basis...) Nonetheless, at the end of the day, she's still at a loss as regards why she or anyone else needs to accept the fundamental core principles of Christianity in order to live a good, decent, hope-filled and meaningful life.

This whole thing has always thrown June for a loop, as she, like her dear, sweet man, just doesn't get it, can't quite grasp it, and suspects she never will, despite the fact that there are so many other aspects of Christianity that do make sense to June...

Oh well.

Take gentle care.
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,595 posts, read 8,683,383 times
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I also do not understand exactly what it means when people say Jesus died for our sins. While I can grasp the fact that essentially there lies this piece of Christianity that says the son of God (who is also somehow God himself) came to Earth and went through a miserable execution for us. I suppose what I don't understand about it is this:

Did Jesus have to die for our sins? And by death, I am not talking about something you might read in the obituaries of your local paper but a brutal, horrendous death. Was it really necessary? And why? Obviously, God (before he took on the form of Jesus) came up with this plan that he was going to come down and because of his omnipotence he foresaw that he was going to be brutally murdered. But, the question I ask is why did Jesus HAVE TO die for our sins? And that seems to me to be the very waning breath of the brutally murderous Christian God before he reverts over to the New Testament Christian God.

Why aren't we asking ourselves "What does it mean when they say Jesus came for our sins?" instead of "What does it mean when they say Jesus died for our sins?" Was it absolutely necessary to actually die for our sins in such a manner? I don't think so. I think that if this is an all powerful God we're talking about than people could just as easily be talking about all the wonderful things Jesus did to alleviate people's sins without dying for them. I think it's pretty ridiculous and poor planning on the part of God to think that he actually had to kill himself to get a point across. And it doesn't really say much for his omnipotence. Surely he could have come up with a better way than crucifixion to get a hold of everyone's attention. This is a God we're talking about right?
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,596,364 times
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It could also be pointed out that from the viewpoint of an atheist that the very concept of Jesus dying for our sins probably came about long after his death as a means of raising his stature above that of a mere human being to that of a God and also to provide an explanation for why an all powerful God would allow a group of brutal, sadistic men to torture and execute his son in such a horrible manner when he could have easily stopped them. My honest feeling is that Jesus was in fact a mortal human being, had no supernatural powers and there was no God to save him. I do think he must have been an extrordinary human being though when you consider the influence he has spread to hundreds of billions of people and the fact that I personally don't believe he rose from the dead doesn't diminish my belief that he was nevertheless a very rare type of individual similar to Ghandi, Martin Luther King and others who sought to change the world without violence.
I also agree with June in the sense that I see myself as basically a good person and I don't see mankind in general as a group of hopeless sinners. I feel that the great majority of people are good and well intentioned even though all of us have our faults.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,596,364 times
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June wrote:
Quote:
(and let's face it, folks, while June and Montana are not exclusively like minded in our love and adoration of one another, June would certainly say we're darn close in our thinking process(es) )
Does that mean that I adore you more than you adore me?
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:15 PM
 
7,463 posts, read 7,092,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post

However, if June and Montana are in agreement on this, (and let's face it, folks, while June and Montana are not exclusively like minded in our love and adoration of one another, June would certainly say we're darn close in our thinking process(es) )


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
June wrote:

Does that mean that I adore you more than you adore me?



Of course not!


--You know June loves you, so stop that )

June meant the above sentence that she wrote to be the other way around!!! June's sorry. Sometimes her mind goes a bit haywire. (Lack of sufficient caffine levels in her blood, my darling...)

Forgive your Beloved?

Please?
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