Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
we've already settled that it is at their own church building, and on their own church property. i think the only issue that remains unsettled is the release time, and i would still like to hear what people think about that in comparison to the other release times that are allowed.
In your last sentence you say " I would understand if tax dollars were paying for all of it." Does that mean that tax dollars are paying for "some" of it? I hope not!
No-we pay for it ourselves when we pay tithing. Poor choice of a word I guess, sorry.
Again we are talking about seminary held at a school with paid teachers (who are men btw because the church would never want to hire a woman due to the 'proclamation to the world' that states women should not work, they should stay home).
Early morning seminary held at your church and taught by women who volunteer is perfectly fine...hence it's taught at your church, not the public school.
It is interesting though that the same job is a paid job for the men, and yet the women who do the same job "called" to volunteer their time.
I appreciate your attempt at understanding the church, but unfortunately it's just incorrect. Women do teach seminary. Every one of my teachers was female, my own mother taught before I was in high school. I'm not sure what the exact split is church wide, but I was a teacher as a male (notice the screen name) when I was only 23. During the in service meetings it seemed to be split pretty evenly between men and women. Everyone from college students to retirees both male and female can teach-there are no requirements.
The broader, more important point though, is to properly understand the role of men and women. As a well-versed fervent believer in my religion I can promise you that women are not relegated to working only in the home. To say women are denied any opportunities outside of the home is really untrue though. I think you are mistaking the emphasis put on child rearing an oppression of all things non domestic. Yes, we believe that the most important work a man or woman can do in this world takes place in the home, in rearing children and caring for one another as a couple. But there is no condemnation of any sort for women who choose to work outside of the home. If there is any such pressure, it's social or cultural from others in the church (and very wrong) but not structurally enforced by the church or it's leaders in any way.
My problem is that it is only for religion. Why can't my child take some kind of ethnic class, why must it be religion? What about folk dancing if that is a part of my culture? Why does that not qualify?
It should apply to any class not offerred by the school.
Period.
You act as if the LDS church is forbidding you in some way. If you want to, get enough students, set it up, and do it. There are paid teachers, a place off of school grounds the classes are held, and a large participating population for seminary. Why begrudge what is taking place? If you feel a genuine need for this ethics class, then get it going. Your idea sounds great, but how is seminary keeping you from reaching your goal? I don't see the connection.
All I am saying is that the day you get the school involved in this offiste religious activity, is the day I want equal rights for my child to go offsite for knitting class, the same flexibilty as your kids would get.
The fact is, if the school secretary (or whomever) is manipulating kids class schedules to include time off for offsite religious activities and therefore mixing the church and state together, then the same protection for my child to attend underwater ballet class should be available.
That is all I am saying. If it IS allowed for me to take her out for whatever class i see fit, then no big deal.
If this release time is ONLY for religious studies, than that makes it offensive and unconstitutional you just brought someone performing religious tasks (the secretary paid by public taxes moving schedules around for religious activities only) into my public school.
So it really depends one what is REALLY going on over there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamman
You act as if the LDS church is forbidding you in some way. If you want to, get enough students, set it up, and do it. There are paid teachers, a place off of school grounds the classes are held, and a large participating population for seminary. Why begrudge what is taking place? If you feel a genuine need for this ethics class, then get it going. Your idea sounds great, but how is seminary keeping you from reaching your goal? I don't see the connection.
I appreciate your attempt at understanding the church, but unfortunately it's just incorrect. Women do teach seminary. Every one of my teachers was female, my own mother taught before I was in high school. I'm not sure what the exact split is church wide, but I was a teacher as a male (notice the screen name) when I was only 23. During the in service meetings it seemed to be split pretty evenly between men and women. Everyone from college students to retirees both male and female can teach-there are no requirements.
The broader, more important point though, is to properly understand the role of men and women. As a well-versed fervent believer in my religion I can promise you that women are not relegated to working only in the home. To say women are denied any opportunities outside of the home is really untrue though. I think you are mistaking the emphasis put on child rearing an oppression of all things non domestic. Yes, we believe that the most important work a man or woman can do in this world takes place in the home, in rearing children and caring for one another as a couple. But there is no condemnation of any sort for women who choose to work outside of the home. If there is any such pressure, it's social or cultural from others in the church (and very wrong) but not structurally enforced by the church or it's leaders in any way.
You must not read my words very carefully, you took early morning seminary no? Early morning seminary is predominatly taught by women and is not even part of this discussion.
Seminary held at the school is what we are discussing and it was 100% taught by men (while I went to high school)
As for the roles that men and women are to play...
By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.
A proclamation to the world by Gordon B Hinkley Sept. 23 1995
Of course, I could be completely wrong, I am just stating my experience.
Last edited by moonsavvy; 10-13-2008 at 03:12 PM..
All I am saying is that the day you get the school involved in this offiste religious activity, is the day I want equal rights for my child to go offsite for knitting class, the same flexibilty as your kids would get.
The fact is, if the school secretary (or whomever) is manipulating kids class schedules to include time off for offsite religious activities and therefore mixing the church and state together, then the same protection for my child to attend underwater ballet class should be available.
That is all I am saying. If it IS allowed for me to take her out for whatever class i see fit, then no big deal.
If this release time is ONLY for religious studies, than that makes it offensive and unconstitutional you just brought someone performing religious tasks (the secretary paid by public taxes moving schedules around for religious activities only) into my public school.
So it really depends one what is REALLY going on over there.
you are still running in circles though. we have explained those parts a few times now. was there a part of it that you didn't believe?
how is it mixing church and state? it has nothing to do with church and state except that whoever controls the school boards said that a religion could teach its doctrine to those that want to attend.
own building.
own funding.
if other churches, ethic schools of thought, and belief systems want to do it to, they probably have the opportunity, and probably some have already done it.
doesn't interfere with school schedule. doesn't interfere with graduation capability. doesn't count at all toward graduation.
so the only point that i (again) see as arguable is the release time. but again, how is that a problem, with the above paragraph explained, and the fact that students can get all kinds of other release time?
it seems to me a knee jerk reaction to something that you don't want to understand.
aaron out.
incidentally, moon, a good number of the women that i knew that taught early morning seminary in smaller towns (since we have already established that the city seminaries are different animals--at least i think we agree there), were the morning teachers because, yes, they tend the kids, and when the kids go off to school, they have time to volunteer or work, while the husband is out working himself.
so the issue that i see there is just that people don't agree with the mormon idea that mothers are better off in the home when they can manage it. i can understand the resentment, but i can also point out that there are a good many *rational*, *intelligent*, *capable* women that feel the same (my wife among them: masters in counseling psychology, very independent, very strong; yet a gentle, homemaking mother by her own will and belief)--and some of them are not even right-wing, zombified fanatics.
doesn't interfere with school schedule. doesn't interfere with graduation capability. doesn't count at all toward graduation.
I actually thought i read someone state it was only for religious reasons. If that is untrue and release time is for everyone than I have no complaints.
But even so, to say it does not interfere with the school schedule is untrue since by definition that is exactly what it is doing. But that is what it is intended to do so that kids can go offsite and learn whatever they want. I have no issue if it applied fairly to all students.
it certainly interferes with the idea that kids are on school campus 100% of the time during normal school hours, but it does not interfere with the school schedule itself in any way. the school schedule doesn't ever have some sort of clause written in underneath the hour-by-hour breakdown that says something like: make sure that students remain on campus at all times. escort them from one class to another so as to avoid pointless wandering through halls, socializing with peers, and other, state-determined mischief.
the school schedule is set up on an individual basis so that each kid can take the classes that are going to help him/her later in life, and for the most part, those classes will count toward graduation, but not always.
and so again (i am feeling like we are ignoring this part of my logic), it seems to me to come down to the idea that release time religion is bad. is that true? is that the base? if it is, is release time lunch bad? is release time for the kids that are ahead of graduation schedule bad? should we make them stay at school for longer hours than is normal, taking classes that won't affect their high school graduation? what about those students that drop out of high school all together, because they are 15 years old, but have already completed all of the requisites, and are ready to move on to college? what if the lutherans in slc want to start release time seminary? should they not be allowed? the hindus? the atheists?
or, is it just that you don't like the majority religion of a state getting release time for religious purposes?
EDIT: there is a lot there, but i am going to break it down into the two main pieces, because i would like those two pieces answered by those on this board that are against release time seminary. i have asked the questions a few times now, and have not gotten a direct answer.
1) is any form of release time bad (field trips, competitions, sports, assemblies, lunch, other religious services, etc)
2) is it just the fact that it is the mormon church doing it that makes it bad?
EDIT-EDIT: also, for those of you that are likening underwater basket weaving and various other classes to seminary, they already have those. they are called arts and crafts, debate, history, language, etc. and the cool thing? your kids will actually get credit for those classes, as opposed to seminary. there is really no need to do release time for classes like that....
unless... your school doesn't offer them. then you get release time to go study it somewhere else, at a college or something. i don't really know whether they actually call that 'release time' or not though, but if they get to leave campus for something not curriculum-related, it amounts to the same thing.
utah is not the only state to do this, nor did we come up with it.
Last edited by stycotl; 10-16-2008 at 11:23 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
