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Old 11-12-2008, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 7,974,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
Bud, how many years would it take if Santa Clause was involved or the Easter Bunny.
I find it remarkable that this God, that created the entire universe with all its 100 of trillions of stars, has nothing better to do than mess with the creatures that inhabit this world. But, hey! God can do anything, so I hear.
Mess with? We are His children.... Maybe all those stars are just His Christmas lights.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JetJockey View Post
Umm... when whales die they do sink to the bottom and create entirely new ecosystems where they settle. After their bones are stripped of anything viable, the bones are then buried in silt and mud. You can look it up on basically any scientific site or book... And no, fossils do not require a quick immersion in mud. Simple science my friend. Do a quick search for sedimentary fossils and how they are made.
Umm...Whales can sink to the bottom, but often not right away. And when they do sink, many scavengers quickly attack and colonize them. It they did sink as soon as they died , we never would of had a whaleing industry. On May 8, 2008 a large dead whale was founding floating under Pier 27 in San Francisco.
In Peru, paleontologist Leonard Brand found 346 whales within an area of 370 acres. And most of these whales were well preserved and intact, and in this case, it would of required rapid burial. This discovery contradicts the uniformitarianism which is accepted in geology today. This graveyard of whales is more in agreement with the Biblical account then what modern science would have us believe. Also found with the whales were ground sloths and penguins. Tell me, how does modern science account for 346 whales being found in such well preserved condition along with land animals?
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:06 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,753,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Umm...Whales can sink to the bottom, but often not right away. And when they do sink, many scavengers quickly attack and colonize them. It they did sink as soon as they died , we never would of had a whaleing industry. On May 8, 2008 a large dead whale was founding floating under Pier 27 in San Francisco.
In Peru, paleontologist Leonard Brand found 346 whales within an area of 370 acres. And most of these whales were well preserved and intact, and in this case, it would of required rapid burial. This discovery contradicts the uniformitarianism which is accepted in geology today. This graveyard of whales is more in agreement with the Biblical account then what modern science would have us believe. Also found with the whales were ground sloths and penguins. Tell me, how does modern science account for 346 whales being found in such well preserved condition along with land animals?
Can you please link your references so we can see how you arrived at these conclusions?
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:24 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,095,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Can you please link your references so we can see how you arrived at these conclusions?
SF Gate: Multimedia () (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/05/09/BAOS10JJAU.DTL&o=0 - broken link)

Leonard Brand - Loma Linda University
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:39 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,753,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
SF Gate: Multimedia () (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/05/09/BAOS10JJAU.DTL&o=0 - broken link)

Leonard Brand - Loma Linda University
SF Gate didn't work, but the Loma Linda link was very nice. It doesn't say anything about a flood or conflicting with uniformitarianism, though. They are still researching the find, but the conclusions on the page said

"It appears that a combination of factors led to rapid accumulation of diatoms and burial of whales. These probably included: high levels of nutrients from upwelling and from volcanic input, leading to rapid diatom reproduction; self-sedimentation of diatom flocks and mats (from secretion of sticky gels that form diatom aggregates), as occurs in modern blooms; lack of dissolution of diatoms because of the shallow water; possible concentration of diatoms in the bay from storm-related currents (as indicated by sedimentological evidence)."

It actually uses uniformitarianism to support one idea, as bolded above, and refers to shallow water which seems to contradict a flood idea.
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:32 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,095,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
SF Gate didn't work, but the Loma Linda link was very nice. It doesn't say anything about a flood or conflicting with uniformitarianism, though. They are still researching the find, but the conclusions on the page said

"It appears that a combination of factors led to rapid accumulation of diatoms and burial of whales. These probably included: high levels of nutrients from upwelling and from volcanic input, leading to rapid diatom reproduction; self-sedimentation of diatom flocks and mats (from secretion of sticky gels that form diatom aggregates), as occurs in modern blooms; lack of dissolution of diatoms because of the shallow water; possible concentration of diatoms in the bay from storm-related currents (as indicated by sedimentological evidence)."

It actually uses uniformitarianism to support one idea, as bolded above, and refers to shallow water which seems to contradict a flood idea.
According to In the News, an article by Brad Harrub, Ph.D. He stated that Brand and his colleagues commented: The whales were to well preserved for a slow burial. And they believed that only a rapid burial could explain such preservation of over 300 whales. The big question is, what caused 300 whales to die, and what caused the rapid burial?

Only something catastrophic could account for the quick burial of both whales and land animals, together.

Printable version - What Can Explain Hundreds of Fossilized Whales? (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/print/2372 - broken link)
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:49 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,753,466 times
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
According to In the News, an article by Brad Harrub, Ph.D. He stated that Brand and his colleagues commented: The whales were to well preserved for a slow burial. And they believed that only a rapid burial could explain such preservation of over 300 whales. The big question is, what caused 300 whales to die, and what caused the rapid burial?

Only something catastrophic could account for the quick burial of both whales and land animals, together.

Printable version - What Can Explain Hundreds of Fossilized Whales? (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/print/2372 - broken link)
I don't doubt that a catastrophic event occurred, but it doesn't automatically suggest a worldwide flood. It could have been a local flood, or a big storm. The conclusions I quoted from the website you linked earlier to show a number of factors that likely caused the quick burial. One includes shallow water. another includes a uniformitarian idea. And the others mostly have to do with rapid growth (blooming) of the diatoms, the skeletons of which later became most of the sediment encasing the fossils.
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:05 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,095,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
I don't doubt that a catastrophic event occurred, but it doesn't automatically suggest a worldwide flood. It could have been a local flood, or a big storm. The conclusions I quoted from the website you linked earlier to show a number of factors that likely caused the quick burial. One includes shallow water. another includes a uniformitarian idea. And the others mostly have to do with rapid growth (blooming) of the diatoms, the skeletons of which later became most of the sediment encasing the fossils.
No, it doesent automatically suggest a worldwide flood, and yet it does not ruel out a catastrophic flood either. And another thing to consider, is why do we find so many other large fossils that have been presevered around the world? So many larger fossils exist today, and for them to exist, it would require a quick burial as well. Why do we see so many intact fossils all over the Globe as if frozen in time? If nature had taken a normal course, most of there bones would of been scattered long ago.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:29 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 3,075,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Your example is to simplistic when speaking of geological motion and time. In the real world, geological motion is not as neat or as ordely as you would have us believe. And it is for that reason the idea of a whale fossil being found fully intact, and after thousands of years, and thousands of feet up on a mountain is rather far fetched.
Sigh

-It's not simplistic, tectonic shift happens on large areas of land so stop trying to make it sound like every chunk of soil is pulling apart from each other.
-Very rarely do we get a complete set of bones. Most of them are found to be incomplete or a few miles from where the rest are found. You've also assumed that each and every single complete fossil found was buried at the same time, please justify such an assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
I don't doubt that a catastrophic event occurred, but it doesn't automatically suggest a worldwide flood. It could have been a local flood, or a big storm. The conclusions I quoted from the website you linked earlier to show a number of factors that likely caused the quick burial. One includes shallow water. another includes a uniformitarian idea. And the others mostly have to do with rapid growth (blooming) of the diatoms, the skeletons of which later became most of the sediment encasing the fossils.
It's a bit of an overkill to suggest a global flood for 300 hundred whales but in any case, wasn't the argument that all kinds of fish(from both saltwater and freshwater areas) as well as insects and vegetation survived this event without being in the ark?
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,018 posts, read 16,649,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
According to In the News, an article by Brad Harrub, Ph.D. He stated that Brand and his colleagues commented: The whales were to well preserved for a slow burial. And they believed that only a rapid burial could explain such preservation of over 300 whales. The big question is, what caused 300 whales to die, and what caused the rapid burial?

Only something catastrophic could account for the quick burial of both whales and land animals, together.

Printable version - What Can Explain Hundreds of Fossilized Whales? (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/print/2372 - broken link)
Oh crap...Another apologetics link...The whales probably were congregated on their calving grounds when some natural event took place such as a major volcanic eruption. Grey Whales today migrate and congregate in the shallow lagoons of the Baja to have and raise their calves.

Google wasn't working for me this am, but it is now, and I found out what caused the rapid burial of those whale fossils...No It was not Noah's flood, but thanks for bringing the subject up Campbell....I love learning, particularly about science.

The well-preserved whales indicate rapid burial. The 346 whales within 1.5 km2 of surveyed surface were not buried as an event, but were distributed uninterrupted through an 80-m-thick sedimentary section. The diatomaceous sediment lacks repeating primary laminations, but instead is mostly massive, with irregular laminations and speckles. There is no evidence for bioturbation by invertebrates in the whale-bearing sediment. Current depositional models do not account for the volume of diatomaceous sediments or the taphonomic features of the whales. These taphonomic and sedimentary features suggest that rapid burial due to high diatom accumulation, in part by lateral advection into protected, shallow embayments, is responsible for the superb preservation of these whales, leading to a higher upper limit on phytoplankton accumulation rates than previously documented.

http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/c...tract/32/2/165

Last edited by sanspeur; 11-13-2008 at 10:15 AM..
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