Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For all of the people who really believe that the Ark is up on Ararat just waiting to be discovered I honestly hope that some of them will have the opportunity to explore the specific location that Campbell has talked about. Since the exact coordinates are known they wouldn't have to search the whole mountain, they could go directly to the site and very quickly determine what it is. I have no ill will towards anyone who believes in the existence of the Ark, my own sister thinks it's real. If Turkey has in fact lifted restrictions on traveling to this location I'm quite sure that many enthusiastic searchers will be planning expeditions.
Campbell, once again I'm going to tell you that I do appreciate your "spunk".
I'd like to know, however, to better understand you (and I absolutely will make no sarcastic or rude or hurtful comments, I promise!).
Do you pray to The Lord to help you and give you strength in your ongoing struggles with us often rude on-line atheists?
Do you possibly see us as agents of the devil?
Do you see non-Christian scientists as agents of the devil?
As in people like me? A particularly nasty combo ( to you at least) of a rigorous atheist AND a scientist with some training in geology, genetics and evolution?
Has science totally corrupted my mind? I used to be, after all, a Christian. Something or someone obviously got to me.
I really am interested. I won't have any comments, as I've said. I just like to better know my fellow man and the basis for his or her perspective and responses.
Have a good night all. P$L2A!
I hate answering personal questions, however I will.
1. I usually do not ask God for help here, yet for some reason I did mentioned you, and a couple others by name the other night. I don't normally do that.
2. No, I don't think of you as agents of the Devil, I do actually like you guys, I don't know why? I think that's one of those mysteries I can't explain. So I'm not going to try and figure it out.
3. I see scientists as mistaken in their thinking, and people who have filtered out facts that should be considered. And I do believe their thinking can be influnced by the Devil, yet I do not see them as trying to mislead people purposely. I know they believe they are right.
4. Well, I believe your correct, someone, or something did get to you. And I am a big believer in science myself. Yet the Bible gives warnings about sicence. It states to beware of science falsely so called. It appears the Bible knew long ago, that science would be used to refute some basic Biblical truths. And that is why the Bible states the time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine.
Thanks! I will say that had you linked me with the Devil or Satan, I'd have left the room so to speak. It would have been hopeless after that, and yet of course, Satan is supposed to be very persistant, so my departure would have sorta proved I wasn't him.
The someone or something that got to me were those "godless" but mind-altering, eye-opening university profs at the 3 "U"s I've attended. God help their heathen ways, eh? They may just have had almost as much evil influence on previously made-up and satisfied minds as, say, the Church had on those same innocent and impressionable minds years earlier in Sunday school. Equal time, Fairness Doctrine and all...
Which brings on another thought... what do you think might be the influence of Christian religion in the future, given the proliferation of internet discussion, more and more evidence of a very ancient Earth, dinosaurs, Evolution (as recently proved, BTW), a possible dissproving of the Ararat Ark, and other "unpleasant" facts? I understand that the role and presence of the Church in America is dropping precipitously. Another generation of iPod-influenced kids, who are also spiritually lazy, may well put the final axe to any large-scale church attendance and beliefs. What do you think? Another thread?
(Late PS: I just started it, FYI. See you there. I want your thoughts! Thx!)
PS: I do hope you didn't miss my post, previous page, #460 about some other info and personalities looking at the Ark/Ararat thing.
Until next time?
Last edited by rifleman; 01-18-2009 at 11:45 AM..
Reason: typos
The people who wrote the bible never knew that it would be investigated to establish fact because they were governed by religion and anybody found to question the bible or the belief would be persecuted. Ignorance is bliss, I've heard religious people say I would rather believe something even if it can't be proven. How can one reason with a person that thinks this way. The bible is a babbling book of unproven statements suggested to be the writing of an all knowing God. God must have known, if he authored the bible that there will come a time when smart people will question this and he should have the answers ready without having to resort to it being a biblical mystery.
Thanks! I will say that had you linked me with the Devil or Satan, I'd have left the room so to speak. It would have been hopeless after that, and yet of course, Satan is supposed to be very persistant, so my departure would have sorta proved I wasn't him.
The someone or something that got to me were those "godless" but mind-altering, eye-opening university profs at the 3 "U"s I've attended. God help their heathen ways, eh? They may just have had almost as much evil influence on previously made-up and satisfied minds as, say, the Church had on those same innocent and impressionable minds years earlier in Sunday school. Equal time, Fairness Doctrine and all...
Which brings on another thought... what do you think might be the influence of Christian religion in the future, given the proliferation of internet discussion, more and more evidence of a very ancient Earth, dinosaurs, Evolution (as recently proved, BTW), a possible dissproving of the Ararat Ark, and other "unpleasant" facts? I understand that the role and presence of the Church in America is dropping precipitously. Another generation of iPod-influenced kids, who are also spiritually lazy, may well put the final axe to any large-scale church attendance and beliefs. What do you think? Another thread?
(Late PS: I just started it, FYI. See you there. I want your thoughts! Thx!)
PS: I do hope you didn't miss my post, previous page, #460 about some other info and personalities looking at the Ark/Ararat thing.
Until next time?
Well you know, I believe the longer we hang around here, the more evidence will turn up that supports the Biblical account. Yet I feel that evidence will mostly be ignored. The Bible also indicates that the Anti Christ to come will not soon appear until there (first come a great falling away) from the Christian faith. The prophecies tell us, there is suppose to be this falling away from the church before Christ returns. So a student of the Bible would expect to see this. And this is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 verses 3 and 4. These verses speak of the conditions before the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away (comes first), and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4. who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
As we speak here, the Temple of God does not exist. Yet in the future, it will. And the Bible tells us that a temporary time of peace will come to Israel, and I believe it will be in that time of peace when the Temple will be rebuilt. When you see that Temple on Mt. Moriah, you will know that the prophecies of the Bible are really beginning to excelerate and nearing their final conclusion.
On a side note here, when I was just about 4 years old, I had a dream or a vision of this man. I did not know who he was back then, I was much to young, and no one in my family was really into the Bible. Yet years latter when I was about 17 years old, I heard a minister preaching on the Anti Christ. And while I was sitting there in the church, I suddenly understood what the vision was about. That dream or vision happened to me about 54 years ago, yet I still remember it like it was yesterday.
Last edited by Campbell34; 01-19-2009 at 06:07 PM..
The people who wrote the bible never knew that it would be investigated to establish fact because they were governed by religion and anybody found to question the bible or the belief would be persecuted. Ignorance is bliss, I've heard religious people say I would rather believe something even if it can't be proven. How can one reason with a person that thinks this way. The bible is a babbling book of unproven statements suggested to be the writing of an all knowing God. God must have known, if he authored the bible that there will come a time when smart people will question this and he should have the answers ready without having to resort to it being a biblical mystery.
Christians do not have proof for every story in the Bible, yet it would be a mistake to suggest that there is no proof for any of it. There is a great deal of proof for one of the greatest miracles of the Bible. The crossing of the Red Sea by the Children of Israel, and the destruction of Pharoah's army by God. What we are finding today, is that the more historical discoveries that are being unearth, the more the Bible is being confirmed.
The majority of archaeologists today do not have enough faith in the Bible as the accurate word of God. The majority of archaeologists do not even believe in the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review magazine. They are skeptical of the biblical account, perhaps because of a lack of archaeological evidence in the Sinai Peninsula and a lack of faith. We cannot look to these men to tell us where or if the exodus took place.
The only evidence of this "event" is to be found on biblical sites. Campbell, as much as I hate to be a pest, you still haven't addressed the problems I pointed out regarding the ark.
In the spirit of unending curiosity and hopes for significant new findings, I did find this recent comment about a planned trip to the Ararat site. This comment is from the director of the group doing advanced sub-surface radar imaging, and he pretty much summarizes the sceptic's view of all the supposed proof that has been brought to us by unimpeachable Christian sources. Note that he's also a Christian.....
BTW, One must of needs conclude that most Christians who really need to have this one confirmed just don't understand what constitutes "unimpeachable" or "incontrovertible" findings... Not their fault; they just have no training in the scientific method which is equally "happy" to disprove an hypothesis as it is to prove it. It's called, variously, "intellectual honesty", "unbiased objectivity" and "subject to peer review".
Mr. Geissler (see below) stated...
"Despite the numerous sightings and rumors—of pictures taken by the CIA and "locked in vaults", of "lost photographs" taken by a Russian expedition at the behest of Tsar Nicholas Alexander in 1918—no scientific evidence of the ark has emerged.
"On the one hand, I'm hopeful. On the other hand, I'm very skeptical of the validity of our radar satellite images, said Rex Geissler, president of ArcImaging (Archaeological Imaging Research Consortium).
"There is no publically available picture that readily shows a man-made object that has any clarity whatsoever …
Some of the photos are outright misrepresentations, non-scientific, and do not prove anything.
"We think that with the hundreds of explorers who have visited the region, if the ark was jutting out of the ice, it would be obvious."
ArcImaging was the first organization to receive permission from the Turkish government to survey the mountain since 1981. The archaeological research organization conducted a preliminary investigation of the icecap using ground-penetrating radar in 2001.
Additionally, I add the following findings, available to all on "Google": Many Creationists and anti-Evolutionists and Arkists cite the awesome array of scientific support and talent that all agree with them. Understandable, esp. if these proponents have no true understanding of the requirements of verifiable and valid research.
To that point, in the case of this upcoming hike and study on Ararat, some of the "unbiased" major scientists listed on this project include:
Dr. David Livingston.
Googling him turns up "ancientdays.net, an unabashed fundamentailst web site. His discussions that "prove Evolution is a hoax" are specious on their face.
Next...
Dr. Edmond Holroyd III.
"Creation Ministries International, world renowned creationist ministry, formerly Answers in Genesis international, home of Creation Magazine"
or this unbiased fellow...
Dr. Yasar Sutbeyaz
Active Member of The Istanbul Chamber of Commerce. Googling him shows his considerable interest in promoting tourism in Turkey. (You saw the Gov't of Turkey's quote in my notes two posts ago, I'm assuming, about Turkey's interest in gaining hard currency through Ark tourism? I did paste it twice in two colors in the same post, just so no-one would or could miss it...)
The problem we scientists consistently have with Christian science and scientists? Is it just one of the observed arrogance of the scientific community? Nope. Are we active reps of Satan? I don't think so, but that's your personal call I guess...
But... if anyone can link just one instance where a "study" has been done where the Christian experts conclude that their findings were inconclusive or didn't prove some religious point or absolutely pointed away from their prime hypothesis, the real scientific community would begin to accept them as intellectually honest.
In reality, ALL such studies all of the time always show that, "See, we were right, God exists, and you other guys were wrong. Praise the Lord!".
Real science, on the other hand, can be demonstrated to be endlessly objective, open to and accepting of proof of "the Null Hypothesis" if it works out that way. And it often does. It doesn't destroy our self-image if our hypothesis is demolished. Christians, not so much...
(If you don't understand this key element [Null Hypothesis] of research, then (a) you have NO understanding of how science works, or (b) it's just the part that ALL pseudo-research conducted by religiously-based researchers conveniently leave out. It's the part that says "My hypothesis may be wrong, and I'm open to accepting that").
So, when "The World-Wide Creationist Academy" or "Christians For The Truth in Science" or some other suitably named org states that they are going to look into something, anything, you KNOW (a) they most assuredly have an agenda, (b) objectivity is out the window, and (c) no matter what the results, they know their financial supporters and congregation back home require that their "findings" will support the original intent of the work.
As in "foregone conclusions".
Ergo, real science has learned, over time, to mostly discount or at the least be very suspicious of the finger-wagging findings of such groups. If we did things this way, we'd be laughed out of town, even by the fundamentalist Christians.
A level playing field is all we ask. "Require" actually.
Back to you guys!
For whatever reason, it is often not the qualified folks that champion the great discoveries of this world. Often it is the little guy who has no experience in such things. The greatest Biblical text, the Dead Sea Scrolls was unearth by a shepherd boy. And it appears the God of the Bible often uses the non important, and least qualified people to do His bidding. So it should come as no surprise, that the one person who actually reaches Noah's Ark, may very well be someone who is not highly thought of, nor is he considered by the elite of this world. And it may be, that this person will have absolutely no training in the scientific method. Yet, if I know God, this is just the kind of person who will finally reach the Ark of Noah. God really does have a sense of humor.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
I'm still waiting for you address these problems Campbell....
Sanspeur, I'm not going to pretend that I have all the answers about Noah's Ark. The truth is, I don't. Yet I believe it happened because there is so much about the Bible that has been proven to be true. And based on that, I would have a hard time suggesting that the other stories are not. Also, there now appears to be ample evidence that the Ark is sitting near the top of Mt. Arrarat. I can only form a belief or opinion, when I have enought evidence to do so. Anything outside of that evidence, would just be speculation on my part.
The majority of archaeologists today do not have enough faith in the Bible as the accurate word of God. The majority of archaeologists do not even believe in the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review magazine. They are skeptical of the biblical account, perhaps because of a lack of archaeological evidence in the Sinai Peninsula and a lack of faith. We cannot look to these men to tell us where or if the exodus took place.
The only evidence of this "event" is to be found on biblical sites. Campbell, as much as I hate to be a pest, you still haven't addressed the problems I pointed out regarding the ark.
Another recent discovery proves the Bible is correct again, leaving egg on the faces of those who imbraced academic belief. Bibles timeline correct for the Kingdom of Edom. Link below.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thanks!
