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Old 11-10-2008, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Morrisville, North Carolina
465 posts, read 1,706,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Yup....The only way it can be explained, is to ignore physics, biology, geology, and all logic etc.....The definition of a myth.
No, the definition of faith; which is simply what it takes to believe in God at all. Logic is not always synonymous with truth. If you can't start from there, then give it up now and save yourself some time.
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:51 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,888,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeweloflight View Post
No, the definition of faith; which is simply what it takes to believe in God at all. Logic is not always synonymous with truth. If you can't start from there, then give it up now and save yourself some time.
But if the logic doesn't hold up then it can't be true. You wish to have a reasonable discussion while throwing out reason?
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,616 posts, read 17,784,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeweloflight View Post
No, the definition of faith; which is simply what it takes to believe in God at all. Logic is not always synonymous with truth. If you can't start from there, then give it up now and save yourself some time.
Start from where?
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:02 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,888,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Start from where?
I think it means "start by assuming that logic doesn't hold water, and that anything goes." This is the only way one can believe the bible is true, since it defies logic so much. Unfortunately once you discredit logic and reason, it is impossible to have a discussion with any kind of logic or reason (obviously). Once this happens, you can't get anywhere in a discussion except with appeal to emotion, which is no argument at all.
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,699 posts, read 4,123,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
But if the logic doesn't hold up then it can't be true. You wish to have a reasonable discussion while throwing out reason?
Not to hijack the thread, but we shouldn't live and die by logic. Have you ever read the Black Swan by Nassim Taleb? First of all, just because something isn't logical dosn't make it impossible-that is a misconception. Secondly, the logic is only as good as our best assumptions. This means that the logic of the 17th century is not the same as the logic of the 21st. We, in the 21st, contrary to popular opinion have not figured everything out.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,699 posts, read 4,123,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Coos wrote:

They probably do but I put up a link to a map some time ago that showed the locations of earthquakes over a period of time and they lined up with the borders of the tektonic plates that are pressing against each other. I know they just can't stand the thought of a geological process that goes on for millions of years but the facts speak for themselves and science has an enormous amount of information on geological history and it's not a series of events that just took a few thousand years.
The thing is, there is a debate within Christianity about this. Not everyone believes in a young Earth/universe. I don't. While I do believe that the Biblical flood occurred thousands of years ago, I think the Earth was formed billions of years before. I could be wrong, but it won't shatter my faith either way.

While the young Earth theory is most common among Christians, I don't think the Bible is clear enough on time periods to deduce this. (again I could be wrong).

Lethal: You're last post to me is exactly my point. While I do value the scientific method, personally the Bible is my ultimate authority and that is because of my faith. I look at current science and see if matches the Bible (the majority of the time it does) while you do the opposite. Unlike modern science, the Bible doesn't change on a yearly basis and was not thought up by humans. I'm sorry that you can't understand this, I can only pray that one day you do.
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:19 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 2,641,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
This is your cue to propose an opposing mechanism capable of making peaks over 8km high.
No, it is probably the same mechanism that you believe is responsible. I just don't adhere to the time scale that you do.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:53 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 3,191,840 times
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Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
No, it is probably the same mechanism that you believe is responsible. I just don't adhere to the time scale that you do.
You've made that clear but you haven't explained why we should expect an accelerated rate. In Chemistry you can generally increase the rate of a reaction by increasing the temperature, the pressure, the surface area or even the concentration of the substrates. All of those things have well documented mechanisms explaining how they cause the rate of the reaction to increase.

Lastly, it's not a 10% increase or 20% or even 200% increase in the rate the plate tectonics are moving, It's a whooping ~62500% which in all due honesty sounds extremely far-fetched for a geological process and pretty much impossible under natural conditions.
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Old 11-11-2008, 07:06 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 3,191,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
The thing is, there is a debate within Christianity about this. Not everyone believes in a young Earth/universe. I don't. While I do believe that the Biblical flood occurred thousands of years ago, I think the Earth was formed billions of years before. I could be wrong, but it won't shatter my faith either way.
That's a fine stance to take since at least there is less chance that we'll get sidetracked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
While the young Earth theory is most common among Christians, I don't think the Bible is clear enough on time periods to deduce this. (again I could be wrong).
Oh my no, young earth creationism is mostly an american phenomenon that became popular from the 20's on. Most of christianity doesn't take a 6 day creation literally and instead accept an old earth with an even older universe and varying levels of theistic evolution.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Morrisville, North Carolina
465 posts, read 1,706,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
But if the logic doesn't hold up then it can't be true. You wish to have a reasonable discussion while throwing out reason?
No, I said nothing about throwing out reason. God is actually a God of reason. God is a supernatural being, and while the Bible was giving for our learning and edification, (as Paul states) it doesn't mean we will understand every single thing about it, or that it will always make sense to us. Does this discount it's truth? Believe it or not, our finite minds can't comprehend all things spiritual, all the time.

I Corinthians 13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Meaning here on earth everything will not be crystal clear to us, that some things won't be revealed, or completely clear, until Christ comes again.

But I don't want to go too far down this road. One thing I've learned about skeptics, you can't convince them. They must see every point in black and white, 1+1 must always equal 2. God is so much deeper than that.

And while I'm not dismissing your doubts about Noah and the Ark, I have to ask myself, what is the big picture here? What was God's message to us in this story? The fact that I can't figure out exactly how every animal actually made it onto the ark, or how all vegetation survived, whether kangaroos were in the immediate geographical area, or Noah had to travel to get them, and so on. What does matter though, is that I've learned that obedience to God is of utmost importance, that after 2000 years of sin, God was ready to destroy the earth, but in His mercy, He actually provided the Ark as place of escape because of Noah's faithfulness to those that were willing take heed. And that He's a keeper of promises, not only did He preserve the life of Noah and his family, but promised He would never destroy the earth by water again; and so far, He's make good on that.

So as I said in my previous post, faith is the starting point. After all, one's whole belief system in God and the Bible must be faith-based. You're believing in events you were not present to witness, and in a God you can not see. Of course it's about faith. Everything we do in life is faith based. You go to bed at night assuming you're going to wake up, you make plans well into the future assuming you'll still be alive when the time comes, everyday you get in your car, you expect that when you turn the key, the car will start, when you send something to be mailed, you believe it will actually reach it's destination.

It's all about faith, my friends. I always say this, if you approach the Bible with a real spirit of wanting to understand it, then understanding will come to you; however, if you approach it with hostility and skepticism, waiting to dismantle it at the first sign of "senselessness", then a skeptic you will always be. The choice is yours.
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