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Old 11-10-2008, 05:21 PM
 
1,617 posts, read 1,583,038 times
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Years ago I read an interesting book called Science Ponders Religion by, I believe, Harlow Shapley (sp, ?); did anyone else read it? Very interesting.....if not, I suggest you check out Amazon or some other site like it and see if you can find it and read it...
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Nikk wrote:
Quote:
Evolution isn't science either.

The original text of the bible are inerrant. The bible is clear on the age of the earth and is a clear historical account of eye-witness to that event that have taken place in the past. So, I cannot admit that anything is in error with the bible, when it IS the truth.
Oh Nikk, what are we going to do with you? If you take a course in any university in the world on evolution you'll discover that it really is science afterall. If the original text of the Bible is inerrant then why does it contradict itself? We don't find one version of Noah and the ark, we find two, which are totally at odds with each other. We find the two of every kind in the first explanation but then it starts all over again with a different explanation, here's an example:

“And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.”

- Genesis 6:19-20

Here's the contradictory statement:
Quote:
“Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.”

- Genesis 7:2-3
Ok, so what in the world are they even talking about? Both of these passages are from Genesis but they say something completely different. I'm not a Christian but if I was I wouldn't have the foggiest idea about what they're trying to say. If there was really a God who was writing a book and directing instructions to the munchkins who were writing it wouldn't he get upset when they screwed it up? One of the major books of the Bible clearly contradicts itself and that is the book of Genesis, the one that has prompted believers to attack evolution. Have you ever considered the fact that it's dead wrong?
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:45 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,119,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txguy2009 View Post
It gets really old and is actually quite alarming to hear people with no formal education in hard science naively criticize scientific theories. The worst lines are "but evolution requires faith too! It's just all one big leap of faith everything is equal."

The cold irony here though is that Christians are making exactly the same arguments that morally relativistic post-modernists make. The same people they claim to stand against.

Everything is not faith. Science is a rational, logical way of understanding the world **based on observation**. Evolution is NOT just faith because, to put it simply, the theory allows us to make predictions about empirical outcomes. Simply saying "God made everything" does not allow you to make these same empirical predictions. For instance, given genome x in 1,000 members of species y, subject species y to this environmental condition, we can expect a shift in the distribution of genome x.

The key here is that evolutionary theorists are not simply saying "we have a collection of observations and we construct any old ad hoc theory to explain it." If that were how it worked then the Christian critique would be correct.

The mark of true science is constructing a rigorous, mathematical, theory, which agrees with all known observations ***and is able to make accurate future predictions abotu empirical events***.

Why don't anti-evolutionists understand this? It's almost as if they're so out of their intellectual depths they can launch these naive, misleading attacks and well-intentioned but ignorant followers simply swallow it whole. It is exasperating. They will believe anything their uneducated preacher tells them.

It is true that at a base level you must make some unprovable assumptions, even in science. But that is far, far from saying that both science and religion are equal at making falsifiable predictions - science far outstrips religion in this regard.

What's funny is that Christians do not raise the same naive attacks on sciences which don't directly threaten their beliefs, like physics or chemistry (in fact all the christians on here rely on physics to communicate over the internet, and some likely use chemistry via pharmaceutical drugs to stay alive).
Yet when the same rigorous methods produce an outcome that contradicts their belief that all life was created by God they attack it. Very hypocritical.

A final point of contention is the fact that Christians claim that evolution has never been directly observed. This is utterly false.
txguy2009: Show us one example of legitimate "evolution." Have you personally seen it? You are right about observation. It is key to all scientific theories. What do we observe, txguy2009? We observe like begetting like. We observe everything digressing from order to disorder not the other way around. We observe complexities impossible to recreate. We observe intelligence behind every complex thing that is made. We observe intricate patterns that defy random chance. We observe complex systems that require an intelligent designer. We see innate instincts in the animal kingdom which basic science cannot explain. We observe love, sacrifice, sorrow, joy, reasoning, calculating and other intangible abilities and emotions in human beings inexplainable by cold, hard science. These are things imparted by one who Himself possesses such qualities.

Not all answers can be found in the laboratory and in academia. The disagreement between evolutionists and creationists is not that one is founded in science and the other is not--it concerns the interpretation of the same data and the same observations. There are many reputable intelligent scientists who look as the same data as the evolutionist and reach different conclusions. It is disingenuous to assert that all who believe in creation operate strictly on faith and all who believe in evolution operate strictly on science. But that is the arrogance of much of the "scientific" community. Arrogance--another scientifically inexplainable human characteristic. Interesting.

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22).

"He who sits in the heavens shall laugh" (Psalm 2:4)

Preterist
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:51 PM
 
417 posts, read 442,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
txguy2009: Show us one example of legitimate "evolution." Have you personally seen it? You are right about observation. It is key to all scientific theories. What do we observe, txguy2009? We observe like begetting like. We observe everything digressing from order to disorder not the other way around. We observe complexities impossible to recreate. We observe intelligence behind every complex thing that is made. We observe intricate patterns that defy random chance. We observe complex systems that require an intelligent designer. We see innate instincts in the animal kingdom which basic science cannot explain. We observe love, sacrifice, sorrow, joy, reasoning, calculating and other intangible abilities and emotions in human beings inexplainable by cold, hard science. These are things imparted by one who Himself possesses such qualities.

Not all answers can be found in the laboratory and in academia. The disagreement between evolutionists and creationists is not that one is founded in science and the other is not--it concerns the interpretation of the same data and the same observations. There are many reputable intelligent scientists who look as the same data as the evolutionist and reach different conclusions. It is disingenuous to assert that all who believe in creation operate strictly on faith and all who believe in evolution operate strictly on science. But that is the arrogance of much of the "scientific" community. Arrogance--another scientifically inexplainable human characteristic. Interesting.

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22).

"He who sits in the heavens shall laugh" (Psalm 2:4)

Preterist
You would not believe it if shown to you.

By your example, Detectives might as well quit their jobs. You would have them only solve crimes they witnessed being committed.

"Hello, I'm a murderer and I'm going to kill someone. Please send a detective to witness the crime."

Detectives do just fine solving crimes from clues left behind. Much in that way, scientists are able to work with discoveries that have been left preserved.

For more information on Evolution, visit http://talkorigins.org/
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,604 posts, read 17,770,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
txguy2009: Show us one example of legitimate "evolution." Have you personally seen it? You are right about observation. It is key to all scientific theories. What do we observe, txguy2009? We observe like begetting like. We observe everything digressing from order to disorder not the other way around. We observe complexities impossible to recreate. We observe intelligence behind every complex thing that is made. We observe intricate patterns that defy random chance. We observe complex systems that require an intelligent designer. We see innate instincts in the animal kingdom which basic science cannot explain. We observe love, sacrifice, sorrow, joy, reasoning, calculating and other intangible abilities and emotions in human beings inexplainable by cold, hard science. These are things imparted by one who Himself possesses such qualities.

Not all answers can be found in the laboratory and in academia. The disagreement between evolutionists and creationists is not that one is founded in science and the other is not--it concerns the interpretation of the same data and the same observations. There are many reputable intelligent scientists who look as the same data as the evolutionist and reach different conclusions. It is disingenuous to assert that all who believe in creation operate strictly on faith and all who believe in evolution operate strictly on science. But that is the arrogance of much of the "scientific" community. Arrogance--another scientifically inexplainable human characteristic. Interesting.

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22).

"He who sits in the heavens shall laugh" (Psalm 2:4)

Preterist
Simple answer here....Evolution make sense...Creationism does not....I wonder if you have observed creation in progress, or anything else in your bible first hand...Have you? I thought not.

He who lives according to myths, lives in denial of reality.
You do know that most of the world is laughing at creationists don't you?
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:15 PM
 
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Default Yeah, ok!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 17271 View Post
The universe has nothing at all to do with evolution. Evolution is an explanation why life on earth is diverse, nothing more.

If that is the case, then why does The Theory of Evolution begin with The Big Bang Theory which hmm... is the creation of the universe? Science does not have all the answers. That's the exact reason why it is questioned frequently and scientists encourage constant questioning.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:22 PM
 
4 posts, read 2,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Simple answer here....Evolution make sense...Creationism does not....I wonder if you have observed creation in progress, or anything else in your bible first hand...Have you? I thought not.

He who lives according to myths, lives in denial of reality.
You do know that most of the world is laughing at creationists don't you?

You haven't met many pregnant women have you? Anyone who has ever been pregnant has seen creation in progress.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,604 posts, read 17,770,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJLoverinNC View Post
You haven't met many pregnant women have you? Anyone who has ever been pregnant has seen creation in progress.
LOL...I've had six kids, and have four grand kids....Pregnancy is not creation in the religious sense.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:34 AM
 
354 posts, read 443,891 times
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....i question evolution because for 6,000 or 12,000 years(estimated age of earth per bible account)... ANY kind of living thing has stopped evolving but just continued to sprout same "evolved" form.. why is that? if i witness 1 form of evolution then i will believe where scientists said human evolved from. then evolution will make sense to me. i will not deny that science has really advanced the technology we are experiencing now especially medical technology, some of them are really beyond outstanding... but scientists must concur, their theory of evolution of living things especially of human is a fable.
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:14 AM
 
240 posts, read 217,192 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by baket View Post
....i question evolution because for 6,000 or 12,000 years(estimated age of earth per bible account)... ANY kind of living thing has stopped evolving but just continued to sprout same "evolved" form.. why is that? if i witness 1 form of evolution then i will believe where scientists said human evolved from. then evolution will make sense to me. i will not deny that science has really advanced the technology we are experiencing now especially medical technology, some of them are really beyond outstanding... but scientists must concur, their theory of evolution of living things especially of human is a fable.
fable, really, why?
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