Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 11-16-2008, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,032 posts, read 8,899,600 times
Reputation: 1973

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by allah truth View Post
if a blind man guides a blind man they both will fall down a hole. - Jesus
Not if the hole doesn't exist to begin with.

 
Old 11-16-2008, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,580,201 times
Reputation: 5524
Quote:
What would it take for you to believe? What if you are wrong?
The answer to the question in the OP is very simple for me. In order to prove that Jesus actually died and was raised from the dead after three days I would need an extensive forensic workup, in other words irrefutable physical evidence that could stand up in a court of law. In order to believe that God exists he would have to materialize in front of me and then undergo scientific tests to prove that this manifestation was something supernatural. Faith just doesn't cut it with me, in order for me to believe something, I've got to have proof and I don't expect to be proven wrong.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,905 posts, read 5,998,065 times
Reputation: 3533
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
Really, what WOULD it take for an unbeliever to actually believe in God and Jesus?
What if after you die you find out how horribly wrong you were but there is nothing you can do to change it then?
Why not correct the situation RIGHT NOW!!

Most people have heard of Pascal's Wager, but I will post it here just in case some have never heard it. I had never heard it until I said something very similar one time, unaware of PW, and someone else said that's "Pascal's wager". Whatever, anyone could have come up with this completely common sense "wager", just like I did.

Pascal's Wager (From Wikipedia)
Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. It was set out in note 233 of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics

Pascal's Wager is way overthought and presented as a challenge, but the basic premise of this complicated theory is this:

Believe in God, because you have absolutely nothing to lose, and quite possibly everything to gain in doing so. If you choose not to believe in God, then you could lose everything if you are wrong.

It's been my observation that there are highly intelligent people who refuse to believe in God, and their intelligence/thinking seems to be their greatest stumbling block.

Overthinking and reasoning could be the demise of one's soul. Realizing that one's mind can never compare to the mind and thoughts of the Creator is the first and greatest step in humbleness and common sense thinking.
Extroadinary empirical evidence that substantiates the claim that x god or Jesus exist would make me believe that god or Jesus exists. Also, there are several problems with Pascal's Wager It assumes that there are only two options-the god or gods of the believer and no believer, although there are thousands of gods that are worshipped on the planet. If there is an afterlife, what Kali, Shiva, Vishnu, Zeus, Oden/Woden, Thor, Ra or Allah would be the divine power that is judging you. Also, the wager assumes that someone will be judged on belief alone, although if there is a god what is punish faith and reward intellectual honesty or what if they punish believers and reward disbelievers just for the shear irony of it. Pascal's wager also excludes gods that haven't already been created, if there is a divine power power, what if it's the Almighty Toothfairy, and she only rewards those who pull out all their teeth and sell them to give her her tribute. Also, the wager assumes that if a god exists they are worthwhile following. The god belief takes and inordinate amount of time and energy which could be given to real people doing things that you want to do.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 11-16-2008 at 05:26 PM..
 
Old 11-16-2008, 07:26 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,573,735 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Here's the disconnect I have, DOTL. You talk about faith as being evidence but if faith were a good modicum for evidence we wouldn't call it faith, we'd call it 'fact'. The problem is that you're asserting that a lack of evidence is somehow propagated and added to by the word 'faith.'

Your OP was a question seemingly directed at asking people what it'd take to believe not as a refinement of your faith. If I misunderstood that then I'm sorry but it seems like you set out to try and prove us otherwise.

Why should I have to use faith to believe in something? It seems like a cop-out for those who already know there is no such thing as good evidence to believe in God. Therefore, I remain an Atheist until faith can be supplanted by good, solid evidence.
No, I really am asking what it would take for you to believe, without physical evidence. It's a no brainer to me, and I guess that's my "disconnect". It's clear to me that God exists, and it's clear to you that He doesn't exist.

And the "clear" difference between us is FAITH.......you see it as me trying to impose my "religion" on others, I know from the Bible that it is a directive from God and I'm simply obeying God. Your view of what I am and what I am doing is completely skewed, my view of others who can't or won't believe is completely filled with genuine love and concern because I KNOW what I believe is real and truth from my own personal experiences.

But you don't accept personal experiences or miracles as evidence of a God. There are no amount of miraculous works or unexplained phenomena or relaying of personal, real connections with God that will allow you to take that first step of faith.

As a Christian, yes, that is very frustrating to not be able to convince someone that God is real when we all know for a fact that He is. But it's just not our job to do that. My job has been done by planting the seed, it's out of my hands as to what happens next because that is God's job.

And you may ask, "well, why do you keep harping and droning on and on if your job is done?"......my job to plant the seed WITH YOU is done, but the great commission to spread the gospel will never be done until I'm dead.

Other people (lots of others, in fact) read this board and it's for their benefit that I keep "harping and droning". God can use whatever we plant, so it can have far-reaching effects. It's not about a need to be right, regardless of what you may think. It's a simple, yet extremely important need to bring souls to Christ.

If you could stop looking at Christianity and Christians with such disdain and just look at us as people......people who absolutely have felt the same feelings as you and maybe at one time were atheists also, but because we took that first step of faith, we found the truth. The truth that set us free, the truth that we so desperately want others to know.

It's all that God asks from us, to just believe. After that, is when He plants the desire in us to tell others about it. Not every Christian does for one reason or another, the desire is stronger in some than others. But He provided the way through Jesus for us to be able to connect with Him, and all it takes is one act of faith. Can you even try to put yourself in Christians shoes to be able to understand the frustration that we feel?

We all just want to please our Father, and there is no better way to do that than to speak about Him and hope that even one person believes. It's not to earn "brownie points" in heaven, like has been said over and over. It is a genuine desire born from spiritual "knowledge".
 
Old 11-16-2008, 07:49 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,573,735 times
Reputation: 58253
Thanks to all for your honest responses. I know I can't change anyone's mind, that is up to God. But I certainly hope I can make some people think. I'm not ignoring anyone's posts but there's a little too many to respond to.

All we can do is pray. Prayer does work, despite the arguments that it's futile because God already knows what's going to happen, blah, blah, blah.......it all gets really old, doesn't it?

One of the things I know for certain because it's weighing heavy and hard on my heart, mind and soul is that we are in living in the last days. I know, I know, no one wants to hear that. But because I'm a Christian and I'm in tune with the Holy Spirit, I feel what is happening in the spiritual realm as well. There is great commotion, great excitement and great sadness all at the same time.

We are all getting ready to be with our spiritual brothers and sisters, and I want that to be in heaven for everyone, not hell. But I know because the Bible says it that most will not see heaven. I have to admit I can't begin to understand that, but as a Christian I trust God with His plan. I just know that it is ALL TRUE and this tiny little insignificant person is going to do all she can to increase the numbers in heaven.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 07:52 PM
 
Location: ✶✶✶✶
15,218 posts, read 30,426,094 times
Reputation: 10847
Well, if I'm wrong, at least I'll be roasting on a spit in hell with most of my friends.

I'll be all like, "hey dude, you got any icewater?"
 
Old 11-16-2008, 09:58 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,017,079 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
GCSTroop and Coosjuaquin..................
What Sherry said, here's your proof. Faith is proof. Without faith, you will never have your answer.

If you want to debate Pascal's Wager, go right ahead. I was just saying that God is not debatable for me. I know that I know that I know..........but it comes from taking that first step of faith. It's easy to know God, if you really want that. Believe, and receive.
Faith is literally believing in something without proof... how is this proof?

Lack of proof = proof?????????
 
Old 11-16-2008, 10:19 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,160 posts, read 9,147,800 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Faith is literally believing in something without proof... how is this proof?

Lack of proof = proof?????????
Eh, ignore it. The majority of theist's arguments go in circles.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 10:30 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,573,735 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Faith is literally believing in something without proof... how is this proof?

Lack of proof = proof?????????
Noooooo.....

FAITH = PROOF

Without faith, you will never have proof. You will never have proof without faith. No faith, no proof. Faith IS the proof. Faith is believing without proof so that you can receive the proof. Yes, Haaziq, it is a circle....the circle of LIFE.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 10:34 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,017,079 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
Noooooo.....

FAITH = PROOF

Without faith, you will never have proof. You will never have proof without faith. No faith, no proof. Faith IS the proof. Faith is believing without proof so that you can receive the proof. Yes, Haaziq, it is a circle....the circle of LIFE.
Haaziq is right, why reason with one who delights in making no sense.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top