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And yet if a person acts on their homosexuality, you ban them from the temple. If they can't go to the temple, they can't enter the "Celestial Kingdom."
Well, it's always interesting to watch someone else mangle your theology.
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And even worse, they can't attend their family members' weddings and funerals.
Just a small point, but funeral aren't held in temples.
But yes, weddings are held in temples. They last about 15 minutes or a little more depending on how long the officiator wants to talk. There is no music, no wedding party, no bridesmaids, no prayers, no processional, no flowers, no scripture reading, no giving away of the bride. A small number of people (15 to 30) sit around the edge of a smallish room while the officiator welcomes people and talks a bit about marriage and the importance of the occasion. Then the bride and groom step forward, kneel at the altar, and hold hands. The officiator asks them to vow to be true and faithful. They answer "yes." Then he pronounces them married and offers a two sentence blessing. Everyone stands up, hugs the new husband and wife, and then leaves. They go outside and have a big (or small) reception. Sometimes they have a ring ceremony at the reception where they exchange rings, maybe with someone speaking about the significance of that. Of course that part is entirely open to the public. I find LDS weddings to be simple, beautiful, and incredibly significant. But they are not anything at all like what you see in other church weddings. Not that this means that family members don't want to see it or that they don't feel sad or hurt not to see it, but I thought people here might want to know a little more about an LDS temple wedding ceremony.
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This causes incredible stress on a person. How can inflicting such stressful situations on a person, due to intolerance, be "loving and accepting"? Unfortunately such a punishment is not limited to homosexual behavior, but can be a consequence of things as ridiculous as drinking tea or coffee, not to mention not paying 10% tithing (including back-payments).
"Back payments" are NOT required. You just made that up. Why?
The level of stress depends on the person, of course. When my wife and I got married, we had about half a dozen people there, none of them family. I don't think stress was an emotion experienced by family who were not there nor by us. The claim that the situation is due to "intolerance" is also pure fiction. It is nothing more than reaching out to grab any club to beat us with.
Well, it's always interesting to watch someone else mangle your theology.
Just a small point, but funeral aren't held in temples.
But yes, weddings are held in temples. They last about 15 minutes or a little more depending on how long the officiator wants to talk. There is no music, no wedding party, no bridesmaids, no prayers, no processional, no flowers, no scripture reading, no giving away of the bride. A small number of people (15 to 30) sit around the edge of a smallish room while the officiator welcomes people and talks a bit about marriage and the importance of the occasion. Then the bride and groom step forward, kneel at the altar, and hold hands. The officiator asks them to vow to be true and faithful. They answer "yes." Then he pronounces them married and offers a two sentence blessing. Everyone stands up, hugs the new husband and wife, and then leaves. They go outside and have a big (or small) reception. Sometimes they have a ring ceremony at the reception where they exchange rings, maybe with someone speaking about the significance of that. Of course that part is entirely open to the public. I find LDS weddings to be simple, beautiful, and incredibly significant. But they are not anything at all like what you see in other church weddings. Not that this means that family members don't want to see it or that they don't feel sad or hurt not to see it, but I thought people here might want to know a little more about an LDS temple wedding ceremony.
"Back payments" are NOT required. You just made that up. Why?
I didn't make up the "back payments" I read it in a few ex-mormon testimonies. I figured they'd know something about it. But even without the back payments, denying temple privileges is still an effective and harsh way to manipulate people into paying up.
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The level of stress depends on the person, of course. When my wife and I got married, we had about half a dozen people there, none of them family. I don't think stress was an emotion experienced by family who were not there nor by us. The claim that the situation is due to "intolerance" is also pure fiction. It is nothing more than reaching out to grab any club to beat us with.
You don't tolerate the gays so yes, intolerance. And I might expect this response, hidden in a deceptively nice-sounding message: "Oh we tolerate them we just force them to bottle up their sexual energies forever, and don't ever allow them to be with the person they love." Sorry, that's not tolerance.
I didn't make up the "back payments" I read it in a few ex-mormon testimonies. I figured they'd know something about it. But even without the back payments, denying temple privileges is still an effective and harsh way to manipulate people into paying up.
guess you can't trust everything you read, can you? maybe especially if it is coming in the form of a rant by someone reacting emotionally. i know good mormons, and i know good ex mormons–same as every other religion. if i was going to learn about a church, i'd certainly take the claims of the *ex* members with a grain of salt. i'd take the claims of the church with a grain of salt too, just so you know.
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You don't tolerate the gays so yes, intolerance. And I might expect this response, hidden in a deceptively nice-sounding message: "Oh we tolerate them we just force them to bottle up their sexual energies forever, and don't ever allow them to be with the person they love." Sorry, that's not tolerance.
none of the mormons that i have met in my life try to force gays into hetero relationships. on the same token, none of them the mormons i've met have tried to force a homosexual to remain celibate.
i think that you are confusing the differences between tolerance and intolerance as much as you are claiming we do. on one level, that is ok. we all have differences of opinion, to include differences in how we define words and ideas. in another sense (the one where you continue searching for anything to throw at us, whether it is logical or not, supported or not), it can show merely the intolerance of the individual. you've been proven wrong on a number of claims, and yet, your opinion is still the same. sounds fishy to me...
as regarding homosexuals, i know a few; probably everyone does. i am friends with some of them. they don't bother me; they're normal people in most regards. most of them don't even care that i think their lifestyle unnatural–it isn't an issue. if they want to hate me because of what they think i am like merely because of my moral beliefs, then they can. so far, none of them have shown any tendancy in that direction.
none of the mormons that i have met in my life try to force gays into hetero relationships. on the same token, none of them the mormons i've met have tried to force a homosexual to remain celibate.
I doubt this, since by church policy, as a homosexual your only chance in entering the temple is celibacy or heterosexual marriage. This policy is enforced by church leaders, who are mormons. Are you saying you've never met a church leader who deals with temple recommends?
I doubt this, since by church policy, as a homosexual your only chance in entering the temple is celibacy or heterosexual marriage. This policy is enforced by church leaders, who are mormons. Are you saying you've never met a church leader who deals with temple recommends?
Just because we believe homosexuality is wrong does not mean we are forcing anyone into a lifestyle they don't choose. That is the belief of our church and if you're not living the standards we believe God has set to enter the temple then I guess you're choosing that you want to live another way and that is ok. And why are you just singling out the mormon church? I'm sure that other churches have standards and personal beliefs.
Hey Logic, it really seems you are beating a dead horse here.
Every religion has a set or rules or a belief system. And contrary to popular belief, most of them have so much more in common than are different. If someone does not believe in what the religion does or believes, here is a novel idea... Don't go. No one is forcing them to.
And yes I know your argument about keeping people out of the Celestial kingdom by not allowing them in the temple but if you believe the Bible then they will have more problems getting in because they are homosexual than they would by not going to the temple.
I hope you put this much energy into things you enjoy, as much as something you do not like.
I didn't make up the "back payments" I read it in a few ex-mormon testimonies. I figured they'd know something about it. But even without the back payments, denying temple privileges is still an effective and harsh way to manipulate people into paying up.
It is not harsh nor is it manipulation. Its a voluntary membership based on belief. If you want belong, the rules are clear. You are allowed to belong an participate and ignore most (but not all) of the rules.
If the groom really wanted his brother to attend his wedding, then they could have had a wedding outside the temple and gone back to the temple later for a sealing. I can see that you are frustrated trying to find that perfect club to beat us with, but I think this is the wrong one...
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You don't tolerate the gays so yes, intolerance. And I might expect this response, hidden in a deceptively nice-sounding message: "Oh we tolerate them we just force them to bottle up their sexual energies forever, and don't ever allow them to be with the person they love." Sorry, that's not tolerance.
What a bizarre statement. Me? Intolerant of gays? My dad was openly gay. I've had close friends and business partners and bosses and subordinates that were openly gay. My wife and my kids and I got along great with my dad and his roommates and friends. I sent my boys to spend the weekend with him and his friends all alone and never worried for an instant about the situation. My father and his friends got along fine with my Mormon family and friends. And you think I'm intolerant of gays?
You seem to have quite the hangup with sex. I guess in your mind it simply isn't possible for anyone to exercise self-control and self-denial and still be mentally and emotionally healthy and happy. Wow.
Obviously a religion that teaches both self-control and self-denial isn't for you. And it isn't for anyone else who doesn't believe in what that religion says should be self-denied and self-controlled. If someone believes what the Church teaches and simply struggles to live it, that's a different matter. If someone chooses his or her personal relationship over church membership or church activity, that's his or her choice. I won't be mad at him or disrespect her for that. He and his partner are still welcome to come to church and attend Sunday School classes and come to the church dinners.
Maybe YOU can't control your sexual urges without going crazy, but don't think that everyone else is equally incapable or equally desperate.
Last edited by PaulMcNabb; 12-05-2008 at 01:17 PM..
You're severely underestimating the emotional and social consequences of a true-believing mormon leaving the church.
Of course it is hard. But so is living a lie. If they don't believe what Mormons believe, they need to make a choice. Or maybe you just mean that there simply should not exist any organizations or belief systems that have any kind of firm beliefs or standards. That way no one would want to leave; or if they did, it wouldn't matter; or if they stayed without believing or living the standards, there would be no consequences.
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Why?
My dad was openly gay. I've had close friends and business partners and bosses and subordinates that were openly gay. My wife and my kids and I got along great with my dad and his roommates and friends. I sent my boys to spend the weekend with him and his friends all alone and never worried for an instant about the situation. My father and his friends got along fine with my Mormon family and friends. And you think I'm intolerant of gays? 
