LDS oppresses its members (myths, quotes, nuns, Apostle)

[PaulMcNabb]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

Yes, but most churches don't block you from attending a vital part of the church and participating in events because you have not paid your dues this week or because you had poor judgement and maybe a lapse in your faith and commited sins. After which let's say you asked for forgiveness and the LORD forgave you, but the church still finds you guilty and sees fit you continue to punish you? Yeah, most churches don't get involved in your personal reluationship with God.

Most Churches usually don't block you from attending important functions because of mistakes you made. They are not judge and jury to their congregation. The Mormon church seems to thrive as both to their members.

What is this Church modeling themselves after? A Country Club? You can't use the facilities until you pay your monthly membership dues and follow ALL our rules, no swimming in the pool after 9pm or else we revoke your membership? I just find that somewhat abusive of the name of God. Passing down judgements and Doling out sentences in the Name of God bothers me.

God is Love.
IMO - Anytime you go against Gods word that is between him and you.
The church shouldn't pretend to know how God would react to your sin, since each one of us have our own individual stories, history, and relationship with God.
Their controlling behavior just sounds shifty and abusive.

Remember a few posts back when I talked about your making things up and exaggerating? Well, here you go again, making things up and exaggerating...

Where did you possibly get the idea that if you have not "paid your dues this week" (presumably you are referring to tithing) that you can't go to the temple? The true facts that seems to be evading you is that once every two years you have to look your bishop in the eye and say "yes" when he asks if you are a full tithe payer. And you get to basically decide what that means. The bishop even has the option, if he feels so inspired, of going ahead and giving you a temple recommend based on your promise to start paying tithing again even if you haven't paid for months. (BTW, he's not looking at any records, so he'll probably have no idea how much, if any, you've paid so far in the year.) At least we don't claim, as does the New Testament, that people are in danger of death for lying about what they donate.

As for sins and punishment, the bishop has the authority to determine what temporary discipline, if any, will be imposed for serious violations of church standards. The vast majority of our sins are not, and should be, mentioned to the bishop---they are between us and God (and maybe involving someone that was directly affected by our sin). There are very few automatic disciplinary offenses (murder, child molestation, and sexual misconduct by a Church leader are some of the very few such things), the rest relies on the inspiration of the bishop. The office of bishop is passed around the local congregation with many people serving over the years. The bishop's counselors are also chosen from the local congregation and change relatively frequently. When you say we are "judged" by the church for serious transgression, what you mean is that we are "judged" by several of our peers who are under personal covenant to be kind, wise, and respectful and to give highest priority to the spiritual needs of the person who has committed a sin. Age, spiritual maturity, emotional health, whether this was a temporary lapse or a long-time behavioral pattern, and any other extenuating circumstances can be considered in determining what, if any, discipline might be involved. Church discipline is explicitly NOT to be treated as or used for punishment for any sins committed. These aren't witch hunts, despite your apparent desire to describe them in terms that put them on a par with the Salem trials and the Spanish Inquisition.

It seems obvious that you have never lived in a real Christian community and have never seen how Christians can function together in love, forgiveness, and mutual support while at the same time maintaining some community standards for behavior. Apparently you've never lived in a Christian community where inspiration is as real and vibrant as it was in the New Testament Church.

Somehow you got it stuck in your head that Church discipline had something to do with God's forgiveness. It does not. This is not a matter of the Church meting out God's punishment. This is not a matter of getting into your personal relationship with God. The Church couldn't do that even if it wanted to (and it doesn't).

But the bottom line is that God Himself has told us that only people who have committed to, and are living, a certain minimal Gospel standard should enter His temple. It isn't very strict, but it DOES require putting God first in certain areas of one's life. This is God's church and those are His temples and He decides how He wants it run. If you or anyone else doesn't believe that, that's fine. The people who DO believe that, however, are free to live according to their beliefs and to voluntarily submit themselves to God's will, including temporarily abstaining from entering the temple until their lives are once again in harmony with the covenants that they have promised God they would live.

A final response to your post. "Most churches" don't have anything at all like LDS temples. All the "vital parts," "important functions," and "events" of other churches where anyone and everyone is invited to attend are found also in the LDS Church and anyone and everyone is invited to attend. "Most churches" see themselves as a collection of people worshiping and fellowshiping together. LDS Christians see that of themselves and much more. We view ourselves as a covenant people who are bound to each other and God with sacred vows to be gentle, loving, and Christlike to the point of giving all that we have, even our lives, to that covenant. We don't even pick our own congregation. We attend whatever congregation's border we live within and we learn to love and serve the people there regardless of personal preference or personality.

I'm sorry your Christian experience seem to be lacking that fundamental, New Testament, Christian community experience. But your lack explains why you simply can't imagine the situation as it really is and leaves you trying to compare it to a country club as a way of ridiculing it.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

R

Where did you possibly get the idea that if you have not "paid your dues this week" (presumably you are referring to tithing) that you can't go to the temple?

Actually i compared it to a month membership at a country club. NOthing about you paying dues weekly. It was an example. Ever heard of one?

Yes but you said in another thread that SOMEONE in the church DOES keep track of peoples tithings. You stated that yourself. You can deny it now but that only makes you look bad. And yes if you do not keep up on your tithing your priveleges of temple time may be revoked. YOU stated that yourself my dear.

It seems obvious that you have never lived in a real Christian community and have never seen how Christians can function together in love, forgiveness, and mutual support while at the same time maintaining some community standards for behavior. Apparently you've never lived in a Christian community where inspiration is as real and vibrant as it was in the New Testament Church.

You know nothing about where i live or have lived or attended or anything. You know that i went to church. No church name given. You prefer to insult me personally rather than defend your churchs stance on archaic practices and mind control.

I am making statments about an organized religion and you are making insulting comments directly towards me. IS this your method of diverting attention? Trying to change the subject by putting me under the microscope. I feel no need to divulge my past church history to you just so you can try to divert attention away from your church.

Somehow you got it stuck in your head that Church discipline had something to do with God's forgiveness. It does not. This is not a matter of the Church meting out God's punishment.

then why does your church deny some members access to the temple?Why is there a require recommendation if they are not all up in your religious relationship with the lord?

I'm sorry your Christian experience seem to be lacking that fundamental, New Testament, Christian community experience. But your lack explains why you simply can't imagine the situation as it really is and leaves you trying to compare it to a country club as a way of ridiculing it.

Again, your only way of dealing with criticism is to try to turn it around on me. THis is called a computer and you have no idea what My church has. I do know that you absolutely have poor debating skills. You are passing judgement on me personally and you don't even know me.

I am questioning your church and their rules and instead of having a mature conversation- you feel the need to defend it by redirecting the line of questioning to accuse me of having poor Christian experiences and that is how you justify and rationalize my opininons. How Unchristian of you.

Is that something you learned at church?

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

What about people with pure motives? Did the New Testament writers have the right to interpret the scriptures in their day? Are you worried that the Bible authors, in the process of creating new scripture, had impure motives and possibly distorted the words of the scriptures? Do you like the way Paul and Matthew interpreted the Hebrew scriptures and do you consider their interpretation somehow authoritative, or do you feel free to pick and choose from their words as to which are true and applicable to you and which are nothing more than impurely motivated interpretations?

Or are you one of those people who are fine with dead prophets and apostles, but living ones are, well, just too real and multifaceted to be acceptable?

Maybe you are one of those people who think that Jesus and His apostles were fine organizing churches and interpreting scripture back then, but now you want the freedom to decide what everything means by yourself without the interference of anyone butting in to your private views about the religion you are creating for yourself?

Maybe you are one of those people who "build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'"

Maybe you are one of those people who have their ancient scriptures and know what it all means and "don't try to tell me what is right and what is wrong, thank you very much"?

I don't know. It isn't easy to tell over a message board what kind of people all the other posters are, so we have to be careful not to judge.


No, but the people that wrote the Bible created an "organized religion" with all the trappings, and apparently "organized religion" is approved by God.

If you are saying that some/many organized religions have problems, sometimes severe problems, then you probably won't get much disagreement. Or if you are simply saying that you haven't found an organized religion that strikes your fancy, meets your needs, and passes your purity test, then that is what it is and I wish you the best in whatever search, if any, you may be involved in.

But if you are saying that you are some kind of Bible-believing Christian and yet saying that a religion is bad or wrong because it is a large group of dedicated and organized people that believe the same thing and believe they should live standards that require more self-denial and self-control than the standards of the surrounding culture, then it seems you have a disconnect somewhere in your personal philosophy and theology...

TSK TSK TSK...AGAIN, this entire post is just trying to engage me in order to divert attention from your church. Why do you feel the need to answer questions with a question and try to divert attention to the real deal at hand by turning it around on me? Why are you judging me personally. I am not judging YOU personally. I am questioning your church. Something I would not be able to do if i was a member without facing repercussions.

I don't feel the need to tell details about myself becuse this thread is not about me. But YOU are representing your church on here and all you can do is turn the tables instead of just answering the questions. For shame.

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

Yes, but most churches don't block you from attending a vital part of the church and participating in events because you have not paid your dues this week or because you had poor judgement and maybe a lapse in your faith and commited sins. After which let's say you asked for forgiveness and the LORD forgave you, but the church still finds you guilty and sees fit you continue to punish you? Yeah, most churches don't get involved in your personal reluationship with God.

Most Churches usually don't block you from attending important functions because of mistakes you made. They are not judge and jury to their congregation. The Mormon church seems to thrive as both to their members.

What is this Church modeling themselves after? A Country Club? You can't use the facilities until you pay your monthly membership dues and follow ALL our rules, no swimming in the pool after 9pm or else we revoke your membership? I just find that somewhat abusive of the name of God. Passing down judgements and Doling out sentences in the Name of God bothers me.

God is Love.
IMO - Anytime you go against Gods word that is between him and you.
The church shouldn't pretend to know how God would react to your sin, since each one of us have our own individual stories, history, and relationship with God.
Their controlling behavior just sounds shifty and abusive.

Im not sure what all these 'vital functions' are that you feel people are being denied.I wasnt married in the temple and no one in the church has ever made me feel less married as a result. The rules to enter the temple really arent that strict.I dont feel that the church 'continues' to punish people,those who repent and strive to move on find support in the church,many dont repent or care what the church thinks.Most church functions are done at the church not the temple and non-members and even excommunicated members are allowed and welcomed at functions held at the church.A very high percentage of mormons who 'can' go to the temple never do,while it is encouraged,it isnt really that important to many members. I dont know where all this talk about shunning of exmembers comes from.I only knew one active mormon in my life before i joined the church but i have known many exmormons or inactive mormons,[in fact i am married to one],and i know of no cases personally where people were shunned by their family for leaving the church.Perhaps it has happpened but it hasnt happened to anyone i know,so i doubt it is a common occurance.
I also dont know what constitutes all this 'control' people keep talking about.How do you think the church 'controls' any aspect of my life?I attend church on sunday,sometimes i volunteer or attend other activities but no one comes looking for me if i dont.I am no more controlled by this church then i was when i belonged to no church.The average persons job will have a much,much greater level of control over their lives than any church will.What oppressive things do you think the church does to me?If the lds church is so oppressive why dont the members feel oppressed?

[BornOKThe1stTime]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

LIYF, What makes it so funny is that you miss the point of the post. People accuse the Mormons of being all heavy-handed and oppressive. Mormons respond saying that when they joined the Church they found that that sort of negative stuff was simply not true.



Now this one is a real knee-slapper, LIYF! LDS always have, and still do, consider Native Americans to be descendants of the Lehites, not that the Lehites were the sole ancestors. In 1981 (note the year!) a statement was added to the explanatory introduction of the Book of Mormon that the Lehites were the "principal ancestors." Last year the introduction was changed to read that the Lehites were "among the ancestors." Both are quite true. I think that most LDS Christians would consider the Lehites to be the "principal" ancestors of Native Americans no matter what percentage of their family tree traced itself back to Lehi. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any "science"; and there has been absolutely nothing even as evidence, let alone "proof," that the LDS view is wrong. There has been no "scientific discovery" that has had any negative bearing on the Book of Mormon and no "scientific discovery" has proven anything wrong about the Book of Mormon. Again, you've been reading too many shoddy anti-Mormon websites.

You think everything is so funny. You say that the oppressive nature of the church is just a myth. I noticed that those who say it is a myth are never those who have actually left the church.

The stories that I have heard from those that left the church were pretty unsavory. Keeping with your pattern you will probably deny that this takes place, but I wonder what reason a Bishop might have for asking teen girls and boys if they masturbate? This is a pretty consistent story that I have heard from ex LDS members. In my opinion this borders on child abuse.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by imbobbbb

i volunteer or attend other activities but no one comes looking for me if i dont.

That is funny that no one cares if you don't participate- because my roomate quite often had people from her ward or whatever come knocking on our door to make sure everything was ok.

Seriously, they came by quite a bit and she eventually had to tell them to please stop coming by to check up on her.
No joke.

They seemed quite determined to get her back into the fold.

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

That is funny that no one cares if you don't participate- because my roomate quite often had people from her ward or whatever come knocking on our door to make sure everything was ok.

Seriously, they came by quite a bit and she eventually had to tell them to please stop coming by to check up on her.
No joke.

They seemed quite determined to get her back into the fold.

Well i can only relate my experiances to you,as in this case you are doing to me and im not going to say it didnt happen,i wasnt there,you were.My wife has been inactive for 25 years.She did attend my baptism and later the baptism of my son,other than that she hasnt been in a lds church in 25 years.Nobody bothers her,or stops by,or calls her.No one has pressured her to start coming to church.About the most she has had to endure was someone saying hello to her on the rare occasion where she has had to encounter someone from church.While she has zero interest in ever rejoining the lds church and isnt to happy i joined,she has no stories of oppression.I am still waiting for someone to tell me in what form all this oppression and control occurs.I dont have a problem with someone who doesnt believe in lds theology,many dont,i dont care.I dont care what people do or dont believe about religion,people should follow what they think is right.I dont understand though why some people have such a hatred for a religion that it is obvious they dont really know that much about.I keep hearing all these vague terms about control and oppression without being given any examples about how i am being controlled or oppressed.I also dont understand why the lds church is singled out and attacked by many for having some policies that arent much different than some catholic or baptist policies.In many respects the lds are more liberal than the 'baptist churches' i have had a fair amount of experiance with.

[Ivorytickler]

"People go crazy when they can't have sex"

Since when? I did not go insane before I started having sex nor would I if I stopped having sex today. Many people live years without sex without going crazy.

Care to post a link to your source for claiming lack of sex results in people going crazy?

, I just remembered my satus is "completely insane"

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

NO sirree, i truely don't give a rats behind what you think about what i think.

I passed even considering this was possible several weeks ago.

This is just like when the mormon church cries wolf about being picked on (snore).

Howz that blacklist coming along?

You all have done a poor job of defending the church's rules. When defenders say things like -The sister didnt have to get married in the temple where her brother wasnt allowed in- it just shows HOW STRONG a hold the mormon church has over their families.

Actually it shows how faithful she is.

These people have been conditioned to believe that marriage in the temple is the best

What's wrong with believing that?

and that even though her own brother couldn't participate or be allowed to attend due to the churchs rigid rules

I wonder? Why do you criticize her for being faithful but not him for not understanding that his sister lives a different life now?

the hold the church has over that family beat the family TIES themselves.

Yes absolutely. Its not the Church that has a hold, its the Lord.

She chose to marry in the church because the church is more important than family.

She chose to marry in the Temple because we consider that to be the Lord's house and all ordinances performed therein are binding on earth and in heaven.

IMO That is not something for your church to be proud of.

We don't rejoice in our accomplishments-but give all praise to the Lord.

Breaking up families like that.

Actually if a family severs ties because they refuse to accept the faith of one of their daughters, then perhaps that family wasnt as strong as you think.

You should be ashamed that you encourage that.

Never ashamed to follow the Lord.

I dislike organized religion because i feel it distorts the true word of God.

Then by all means, please enlighten us on what exactly is the true word of God.

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by BornOKThe1stTime

You think everything is so funny. You say that the oppressive nature of the church is just a myth. I noticed that those who say it is a myth are never those who have actually left the church.

The stories that I have heard from those that left the church were pretty unsavory. Keeping with your pattern you will probably deny that this takes place, but I wonder what reason a Bishop might have for asking teen girls and boys if they masturbate? This is a pretty consistent story that I have heard from ex LDS members. In my opinion this borders on child abuse.

Plenty of ex mormons have posted on this board in the past,though not on this thread.Im not sure where they all went but i dont recall them having any particularly unsavory stories,most just didnt believe some of the doctrine and went somewhere more in line with their beliefs,which is fine with me.Perhaps youve also noticed that no one who is ex-lds has come on here to share any unsavory stories or share their stories of oppression that so many posters that have never been lds allude to.I ask again,what specific actions has the church taken against me that i should find oppressive or controlling?How am i controlled?How am i oppressed?