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I'll go slower: At the foot of Mount Sinai, this is exactly what Jehovah told Moses. Again, this is Jehovah speaking and not moses. Moses is only listening.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
i disagree with you in that actually
"thier" refere to jews , so it means jew's brothern
if the verse meant that he will come from jews themselfs , so it must to be
"i will raise them up a prophet from among them / themselfs"
Quote:
Moses was an Israelite and so were his brothers. Also, this Prophet would do many things exactly the way Moses did them. There is no record of Muhammad speaking in the name of jehovah, as did Moses. I've never even heard a Muslim ever use Jehovah's name.
very well , just let me evaluate your proofs mohammed (pbuh) never said the hebrew word "jahova" , in contrary 'jahova' mentioned once in NT
very convinced point , is there any other reasons ?
by the way , isn't all prophets be sent between mosa and jesus (pbut) supposed to use jahova , so may be the prophecy is about one of them !!!!!!!!!!!
your proof is not sufficient , there must be more !!!!!
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The fact is centuries before Muhammad was even born, the apostle Peter, in his addressing the bona fide brothers of Moses, the Jews, applied the above quoted Scripture to Jesus Christ, and the facts show that this prophecy does apply to him. Acts 3:20-23 - "American Standard Version"So it's the Apostle Peter who also applies that prophecy given to Moses, to Jesus Christ.
i dont consider paul writings as a facts , he isn't a prophet keep us in the facts which both of us agree with keep us on the prophecy itself
A Prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:18-19 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
The prophet described in the above verse must have the following three characteristics:
He will be like Moses.
He will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.
God will put his words in the mouth of the prophet and he will declare what God commanded him.
By all means , yes, let's evaluate!
You actually missed probably the most important point, which I'll call the point number #4.
The foretold Prophet would speak in and use Jehovah's Name as did Moses.
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Originally Posted by samarkaru
1. A prophet like Moses. Some people feel that this prophecy refers to the prophet Jesus, on whom be peace. But, although Jesus (peace be upon him and all of God's prophets and messengers) was truly a prophet of God, he is not the prophet spoken of here. He was born miraculously, and finally God raised him up miraculously. On the other hand, Muhammad is more like Moses; both were born in a natural way and both died natural deaths.
Well let me list the similiarities I have found between Moses and Jesus. I'll give scriptural reference links and you may look them up. Here are some ways in which Jesus proved to be like Moses.
6) Moses and Jesus spoke in Jehovah's Name and used Jehovah's Name.
I'll answer this further through my response to 'elwill' and his post as he seems to understand better about the name Jehovah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru
2. From among the Ishmaelite Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis, chapter 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation. And Isaac became the grandfather of Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was to come not from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, the Ishmaelite. Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed that prophet.
The problem here is that at best, it could only be said that the Ishmaelites were half brothers. They were not only descended from Abraham, but also the Egyptian slave girl Hagar. At best it could also be said they were merely cousins of the Israelites , just like the Edomites who came from Esau , Isaacs brother who also left serving Jehovah and in fact married one of Ishmael's daughters as wife.
You never commented on what the scripture said in relation to where the promised Seed or Offspring would come from. I gave you a scripture where Jehovah comfirmed that the promised Seed would come ONLY through Isaac. Here's the events surrounding this promise from Jehovah being said. When Abraham was informed that Sarah was going to give birth to a son, Abraham, as any natural loving father, was concerned for his firstborn Ishmael and his future. Jehovah promised Abraham that his firstborn would become father to 12 chieftains and a great nation. Genisis 17:16, 18-20 - "Today's New International Version" BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Genisis 17:15-20;
Now later on Sarah noticed Abraham's oldest son Ishmael was poking fun at Abraham's younger son Isaac. Sarah asked Abraham to send Hagar and Ishamel away. Abraham was upset with Sarah, because the idea of sending his oldest firstborn son away was not a natural thing any father would do. Genisis 21:8-11 - "Today's New International Version" BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Genisis 21:8-11;
However, notice what Jehovah told Abraham regarding the promised blessing of an heir and where and to who it would go. He restated his ealier promise: "Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring (Seed) will be reckoned." Genisis 21:12-13 - "Today's New International Version" BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Genisis 21:12-13;
I have also mentioned brought up to you Psalm 83 where the prophet Asaph who also spoke in Jehovah's name and is given the credit for this song of Psalm 83. In this Psalm , Asaph list the Ishmaelites (Israel's relatives thru Ishmael) along with Edom (Israel's relatives thru Esau) and 8 other nations as God's chosen people Israel's tradtitional enemies and the judgement that was going to come upon them.
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Originally Posted by samankaru
3. God will put his words in his mouth
Neither the content of the revelation, nor its form, were of Muhammad's devising. Both were given by the angel, and Muhammad's task was only to repeat what he heard" (Muhammed was an illiterate he could not read or write). God sent the angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words that he should repeat to the people. The words are therefore not his own; they did not come from his own thoughts, but were put into his mouth by the angel. These are written down in the Qur'an word for word, exactly as they came from God.
As far as the above, I will answer this through my reponse to the next post from 'elwill' since he understands more now about Jehovah and speaking from and about God's name.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
i disagree with you in that actually
"thier" refere to jews , so it means jew's brothern
if the verse meant that he will come from jews themselfs , so it must to be
"i will raise them up a prophet from among them / themselfs"
Alright, let's consider what you just said. If it meant the "Jews", then it would have said "Jews"
By the same reasoning you just gave, if it were to truly mean "Ishmaelites", then it would have clearly stated "Ishmaelites".
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill
very well , just let me evaluate your proofs mohammed (pbuh) never said the hebrew word "jahova" , in contrary 'jahova' mentioned once in NT
very convinced point , is there any other reasons ?
by the way , isn't all prophets be sent between mosa and jesus (pbut) supposed to use jahova , so may be the prophecy is about one of them !!!!!!!!!!!
You and 'samankaru' have been debating in another thread this true Prophet. They clearly are Trinitarians and I am not, so I have refused to post there because of the confusion of that discussion. We at least have common ground that there is no Trinity and that it is a false pagan doctrine. Jesus Christ is not God.
It has been brought up in that other thread that the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 is speaking in terms of plural prophets. They claim you have to read the surrounding context to understand that. This is the same arguement Jewish Religious Commentators give. But the Jews hated Jesus and murdered him. He was'nt the prophet they were looking for. So let's look at the context and what it really says.
Here's how the "Message Bible" renders it in plain easy to understand modern English:
Quote:
"But any prophet who fakes it, and claims to speak in my Name something I have'nt commanded him to say, or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.
"You may be wondering among yourselves, "How can we tell the difference, whether it was God (Jehovah) who spoke or not?" Here's how: If what the prophet spoke in God's (Jehovah's) Name does'nt happen, then obviously God was'nt behind it; the prophet made it up. Forget about him."
The Jews here were warned against false prophets. The instructions for dealing with false prophets were given in two places. We just read the above one and the other is at
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 & 6-11Though Jewish religious leaders say that it speaks of all prophets after Moses, there is also a Jewish publication called, "Tanakh - The Holy Scriptures" by the Jewish Publication Society which admits also that
Deuteronomy 34:10 says, "Never again did there arise in Israel a prophet like Moses - whom the LORD (Jehovah) singled out face to face."
There were of course many other faithful prophets who did come after Moses like Isaiah and Jeremiah. They also like Moses and Jesus, spoke in Jehovah's Name and they used Jehovah's name. But never did they speak with Jehovah face to face. As pointed out earlier, Moses and Jesus both spoke in Jehovah's name and made Jehovah's name known to other. Moses, the Holy scriptures say, spoke to God face to face. Jesus spoke to Jehovah and eyewitnesses heard Jehovah speak back to him.
However, as you and 'samankaru' have so clearly stated, Muhammad never spoke to God. Muhammad listen to the Angel Gabriel and memorized things he said he heard. Moses and Jesus Christ were both literate, but you and Muslim scholars admit that Muhammad was illiterate.
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Originally Posted by elwill
your proof is not sufficient , there must be more !!!!!
i dont consider paul writings as a facts , he isn't a prophet keep us in the facts which both of us agree with keep us on the prophecy itself
I have no idea what you are speaking about paul for here. I was quoting the apostle Peter who was hand picked by Jesus Christ himself as one of the 12 apostles.
" . . . . as God promised long ago through his holy prophets, Moses said, "The LORD (Jehovah) your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people". Then Moses said, "Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from God's own people."
Again, Peter was making the application of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 towards Jesus and not some future Prophet 600+ years later. He was also speaking these very words to Jews who understood the prophecy as coming from Jewish lineage. The result of Peter's witness here is that 5000+ became believers.
very well , just let me evaluate your proofs mohammed (pbuh) never said the hebrew word "jahova" , in contrary 'jahova' mentioned once in NT
Actually the Name Jehovah (Hebrew YHWH) was originally in the "New Testament" - (Christian Greek Scriptures) in the first & second centuries CE or AD. Perhaps this reference work article done by the "Bible Collectors Society" on the very subject of the Name Jehovah (Tetragrammaton YHWH) will shed some light on this fact. In actual fact, the name Jehovah was in the New Testament approximately 237 times. Please take note of the last paragraph of this reference article. Handling the Tetragrammaton in English Translations
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"This article has consentrated on the TG (tetragrammaton) in the OT (Old Testament - Hebrew Scriptures) and the various descisions translators have made. Over the years a few NT (New Testament - Christian Greek Scriptures) translations have appeared to also included the TG (Tetragrammaton) in some recognizable form. The basis for this has usually been in OT (Old Testament) quotations, and more recently on the evidence of some early septuagint fragments. This more controversial area can perhaps form the basis of a future article.
It should be noted here 'elwill' that the Apostles and Jesus himself warned about a future apostasy and corruption of Christian religious belief after the death of the apostles and those early church fathers they appointed as mature older men to take care of the many congregations throughout the then knwon world. ALL early Christians did use the name. As stated , there have been found early fragments of Christian Greek Scripture which do show the name Jehovah YHWH was indeed used by them.
However, when the apostasy came, the apostate Christian leaders adopted a Jewish religious superstition which forbid using, writting or pronouncing the divine name. But no where in the Holy Scriptures was this ever instructed. It is an apostate Jewish tradition adopted by corrupt Christian Clergyman. What this practice of removing YHWH and replacing it with LORD or GOD did, was cause confusion in the minds of Gentile Christians as to who and what Jesus nature and identity was. This is why the debates about the nature of Jesus being God or not were carried on in what are called the Ecumenical Councils of Nicea, Constantanople and Ephesus. It should be noted that these three major debates and councils formed the basis for the official Trinity Doctrine and in the creation of the Nicean Creed and the Athanasian Creed for explaining the doctrine of the Trinity because the concept could'nt be explained from the bible. It should also be noted that these debates took place in southern Europe and Aisa Minor (Turkey) where such Trinity beliefs already were in existance among the pagan Greek and Roman religions. Never was it a major issue in the Christian areas of Israel and surrounding Palistine or elsewhere in the Middle East and Africa where the Jewish understanding of the nature of God still existed. It was'nt until later with the foundation of such apostate creeds that the Holy Roman Empire was created and eventually formed the Catholic Church which forced other Christians to accept such doctrine or die by the sword, did such doctrine become universal. It also formed the basis of belief for most all Protestant belief.
Here's a Jewish reference work on the divine name or Tetragrammaton and it's usage and why the omission later on. It's very well done and explains the various reasons for different pronounciation. But the point is, the name is important and should be used. Most Trinitarian Christians today dismiss this evidence and it's understandable why, because using it and restoring it in the 7,000+ areas of the entire Bible where it was taken out, would destroy all basia for belief in a Trinity. It's presence and usage prove how false the Trinity Doctrine is and that is something they will not tolerate. Please don't dismiss this because it is a Jewish F.A.Q. website. The information here regarding this subject is factual.
very convinced point , is there any other reasons ?
by the way , isn't all prophets be sent between mosa and jesus (pbut) supposed to use jahova , so may be the prophecy is about one of them !!!!!!!!!!!
your proof is not sufficient , there must be more !!!!!
Actually this is not true. ALL true prophets of God from Moses to Jesus did speak in Jehovah's Name and about Jehovah. As I have already shown you, Psalm 83 which is ascribed to the true prophet Asaph uses Jehovah's name. Also every other true prophet does also. Here are some of those prophets:
Elijah
Elisha
Samuel
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Jonah
Amos
Micah
Nahum
Joel
Habakkuk
Zepaniah
Zechariah
Obadiah
Malachi
Haggai
Nehemiah
etc, etc, etc. . . . . .
You may have to read some English translations which have restored the divine name to it's original rendering like
American Standard Bible
New Jerusalem bible
Darby Translation
Young's Literal translation
New Simplified Bible
New world Translation
parts of the original King James Version (most places in the AKJV have subsituted LORD & GOD in place of Jehovah. I believe there are only 6 or so references to Jehovah in the original King James Version. The New King James Version has taken it out completely in order to try and prove the Trinity)
and many more you can find in the Bible Collectors website in that article.
Also it should be noted that most other language Bibles do not have the issue of the name Jehovah taken out of them. You will find that in many Bibles not English the name is present, including Persian Farsi and Arabic language bibles. It's the English churches with the issues and debates on whether or not to use the divine name.
Sorry to interrupt you on the conversation with elwill
When i went through your conversations it seems that you have more similar beliefs of a muslim rather than a christian.
I would like to know the following from you
(Please give me at least a brief answer for it if possible)
What is your religious belief? are you a christian, catholic ...etc
Who is Jesus?
What is Gods motive in creating this world and the humans?
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