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Old 12-06-2008, 12:29 AM
 
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I don't need to convince you, these surahs alone convinces me and others Christianity is the perfect way.
the Qur’an commended Isa/ Jesus, faithful Muslims should study Isa’s teachings and obey them

The Qur’an instructs Muslims to uphold and obey both the Torah and the Gospels (Surah 5:44-48)


Allah sent Isa, supporting Him with the Holy Spirit (Surah 2:87)
Allah exalted Isa (Surah 2:253)
Isa was righteous and sinless (Surah 3:46; 6:85; 19:19)
Isa was raised from the dead (Surah 19:33-34)
Allah commanded Isa to establish a religion (Surah 42:13)
Isa ascended into heaven (Surah 4:157-158)
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:31 AM
 
154 posts, read 241,742 times
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Default About the Proof from the Creator

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherryturner View Post
Can anyone be a Muslim? Do you have to be a certain nationality? I know nothing about Allah or the Muslim? Can others be saved? Are you born a Muslim? How do you know your Bible is right and ours is wrong? Ours says others will take from and make their own religions. What does yours say about that? I could think of many questions...I still do not see your "proof" as you say.
Hi sherryturner

I'll explain it in terms of IT which i think would be ideal because we are deling with IT to communicate
But i am not an IT expert nor i am fluent in IT so if i make any mistakes please correct me.

I think you may have heard of Digital Signatures.

Lets see what the Wikipedia has to say about it
A digital signature or digital signature scheme is a type of asymmetric cryptography. For messages sent through an insecure channel, a properly implemented digital signature gives the receiver reason to believe the message was sent by the claimed sender. Digital signatures are equivalent to traditional handwritten signatures in many respects; properly implemented digital signatures are more difficult to forge than the handwritten type. Digital signature schemes in the sense used here are cryptographically based, and must be implemented properly to be effective....

So lets now evaluate the scriptures we talk about

The Bible, The Quran or any other scripture for that purpose

Did any one of us living today met Jesus, Muhammed, Budhdha

The answer will be NO

But how can we make sure that what we get today claiming to be from Jesus, Muhammed or Budhdha is the one which they originally communicated.

As you may know when you send a document over the internet there are very much possiblities for that to be changed in the middle of the communication before it reaches the final recipient.

Likewise we are talking of thousands of years back about the originators of these scriptures

Jesus over 2000 years ago
Muhammed over 1400 years ago
Budhdha over 2500 years ago

What is the assurance we have that to say that what we see today is the original unaltered message.

Yes you will ask me the question that thousands of years back we did not know about Digital Signatures to Protect it from being altered.

But non of the scriptures which is there today is authenticated in such away that the final reader could verify it whether it has been altered or not.

But there is one Exemption That is The Quran
It has a built in Digital Signature type of Signature embedded in to each and every letter of the Quran by the creator of this universe to protect it from humans altering it for their own benefits.

Yes I know you will not believe this but you will have to believe this miracle from the Creator of the universe who is superior than what we know about him

Say: "Praise be to Allah. He will show you His Signs and you will recognize them. Your Lord is not heedless of anything you do." (Surat an-Naml: 93)

Lets go in to a summarized detail about this miraculous code which is embedded in to the Quran

An intricate mathematical code, far beyond the ability of human intelligence, has been discovered imbedded in the fabric of the scripture. Like an ancient time capsule, it remained hidden until our knowledge grew sophisticated enough to decode its intricacies. This code was deciphered by computers.

The discovery of mathematically coded scripture assures us that the verses, words, letters and all parameters of the original scripture were written down in accordance with an intricate pattern that is clearly superhuman.

The first indication of this mathematical composition was in the 11th century by Rabbi Judah the Pious. In a book entitled STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM (Association for Jewish Studies, 1982, p. 91), Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah and his disciples developed a theory that:

...the words and letters of the various prayers are not accidental, nor are they only vehicles for their literal meaning. Their order, especially their numbers, reflect a mystical harmony, a sacred divine rhythm. This mystical harmony can be discovered in historical events, directed by God; in nature, especially in the miraculous occurrences directly influenced by divine powers; and first and foremost, in the Bible. According to Rabbi Judah and the Ashkenazi Hasidic school in general, there can be nothing accidental in the Bible, not even the forms of letters, the punctuation, the vocalization, and especially-in the numerical structures-the number of certain letters, consonants or vowels in a certain verse; the number of words from the same root; the number and variety of divine names in a certain pericope, the absence of one or more letters from a chapter, and many other elements of the Scriptures besides their content.

Nine centuries after Rabbi Judah stated these elements of the code, the computer has demonstrated each of them. As detailed in this chapter and the next, the original scripture was mathematically composed in a way that encodes and guards every single one of its parameters. If the scripture were tampered with, the code would be broken.

Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 88). Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah:

The people [Jews] in France made it a custom to add [in the morning prayer] the words: " 'Ashrei temimei derekh [blessed are those who walk the righteous way]," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned [in that portion of the morning prayer] ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake.

Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words (152 = 19 x 8) but if you add "'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words. This is nonsense, for it is a great and hidden secret why there should be 152 words...but it cannot be explained in a short treatise. ...In order to understand this religious phenomenon, we have to take the basic contention of this treatise exactly as it is stated: every addition or omission of a word, or even of a single letter, from the sacred text of the prayers destroys the religious meaning of the prayer as a whole and is to be regarded as a grave sin, a sin which could result in eternal exile for those who commit it.... (STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM, pp. 88-89)


Do you think this is just a coincidence
Is there any such protection in any other scriptures people believe

Think Think Think

God has given you brains not only to do worldly activities. It is also for the purpose of life in this world towards the hereafter.


The teachings of the Quran is not a blind faith and the Quran itself says it
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36).


Isnt it illogical for someone not to think in terms of the Quran which is a living Miracle with concrete proofs.

Where for over 1400 years no one has found a single error nor any contradictions in the Quran. Where the Bible has over 40000 according to Christian Scholars.

Isnt this a good point to start thinking over again about the faith we follow
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:45 AM
 
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Default Jesu in the Quran

Hi Fundamentalist

It seems that there is something wrong with you fundamentally.

You dont know about the Bible Nor you know about the Quran

You misinterpret certain words in the Quran because of your ignorance


Lets see what you have said about Jesus

Yes it is totally true that we as Muslims have to believe in the previous prophets (including Jesus) and the religions which they preached.
This is one of the fundamentals in Islam.

But what you say is totally wrong that we must follow the Bible . Because Bible is a corrupt book over the period of time from Jesus original message. (I have explained it in my previous post if you want details let me know)

Lets see what the Quran says about Jesus

[Quran 19: 30-34
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, (30) And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, (31) And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. (32) Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (33) Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (34)


If you look at this clearly it says "the day i die". This is from the Quran written after 600 years from Jesus but says "i die" what dose that mean is it explaining the past or the future.

Do you say " i die yesterday, Last Year No you say i might die tomorrow...etc"

Dosent this mean for people of understanding that this event is yet to happen
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:55 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru View Post
Hi Betsey

Muhammed is a mighty Prophet and a slave of the Almighty God
The Quran was compiled 633 A.D. and standardized in 653 A.D. That's over 600 years after Christianity was around. I supposed God just threw us a head fake for 600 years. The truth is, if I had walked around in 140F degree heat, I would have imagined things, too.

What do you think the Quran is going to say? "Yeah, the Bible is true and everything in it is true. Of course that would make this book totally irrelevant, but you don't have to know." Instead it going to make some stuff up to knock the legs from under Christianity. Why, because it can. Christianity is in the Quran because it came over 600 years after Christianity started. Why is there no mention of Islam in the Bible, because it hadn't been invented yet when the Bible was compiled in the late fourth century.

All you have to do to find out what the true religion is is to do some research on the two men that brought their respective religions to the world. Jesus vs. Muhammed. Who wins on the character issue? Who lived the morals they taught? Who was a man of peace? Who welcomed any and all? Who consummated a marriage with a 9 year old girl and who didn't? Go ahead, do the research and find out what kind of man Muhammed was? What kind of man was Jesus? There is no doubt what truth I am following but you can decide for yourself by doing the RESEARCH YOURSELF!!! Don't believe anything these marketing folks tell you.

Last edited by juj; 12-06-2008 at 02:33 AM..
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:03 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 5,383,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru View Post
In any event, if there is any division between a Muslim and a Christian on the grounds of dogma, belief, ethics or morality, then the cause of such conflict could be traced to an utterance of Paul found in his books of Corinthians, Phillipians, Galatians, Thessolanians, etc., in the Bible.

As against the teaching of the Master (Jesus) that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments (Mathew 19:16-17), Paul nails the law and the commandments to the cross (Colossians 2:14)1, and claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ:-
Paul was actually in the perfect position and most qualified of all the Apostles to explain the Mosaic Law Covenant to both Jews and Gentiles and how Christ fulfilled the prophecies illustrated in the Law leading to Christ Jesus. Paul formerly had been a Pharisee and received instruction in the Mosaic Law in Jerusalem from the Pharisee Gamaliel, suggesting that he may have also been from a prominent family of privilage.

As you state, it is true that Paul had the privilage of writting more books than any of the other Apostles the letters of the Christian Greek Scriptures. However it would be beneficial for you to specifically read the book of Hebrews for a deeper understanding of how Christ fullfilled the Law. Paul wrote this letter to the Hebrew or Jewish Christians there in Jerusalem who were being hunted down and murdered by the fanatic Jewish religious zealots who hated Christianity. Things have'nt changed much in that part of the world even today. But the letter was very specific and technical in it's explanation of the legal requirements of the promised Messiah which were fulfilled in Christ. However, long before the Mosaic Law, the very first prophecy of the Bible at Genisis 3:15 was also a reference to Christ being the one to fulfill the requirements and the Quran never deals with this first prophecy or it's explanation in any way. I'll address that further on down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru
THE KING-PIN OF CHRISTIANITY
According to St. Paul, there is nothing that Christianity can offer mankind, other than the blood and gore of Jesus. If Jesus did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead, then there can be NO salvation in Christianity! "For all your good deeds", says the Christian dogmatist, "are like filthy rags" - (Isaiah 64:6).


NO CRUCI-FICTION - NO CHRISTIANITY
"THE DEATH OF JESUS ON THE CROSS IS THE CENTRE OF ALL CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY. . . ALL CHRISTIAN STATEMENTS ABOUT GOD, ABOUT CREATION, ABOUT SIN AND DEATH HAVE THEIR FOCAL POINT IN THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST. ALL CHRISTIAN STATEMENTS ABOUT HISTORY, ABOUT THE CHURCH, ABOUT FAITH AND SANCTIFICATION, ABOUT THE FUTURE AND ABOUT HOPE STEM FROM THE CRUCIFIED CHRIST",
Maybe this would be of interest to you about the Cross itself and it's origin.

The Non-Christian Cross (http://ia341029.us.archive.org/2/items/cross/cross10h/cross10h.htm - broken link)


Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru
Is this Crucifixion a reality or is it really a Cruci-Fiction ?
Moslems claim to believe the Torah (1st Five Books written by Moses). It should be noted that the Bible in it's present form never would have been written had Adam and Eve not diliberately sinned. The Genisis account of man's fall also dealt with the issue Satan raised in the Garden of Eden in the first place. Satan deceived Eve into belieiving that she could be guide herself through self-determination by making up her own rules or laws as to what was right and what was wrong. What is good and what is bad. However, being that Adam & Eve did diliberately disobey, immediately after both of them were removed from Eden, the very first prophecy given to mankind about the solution or correction to the problem was presented at
Genisis 3:15
Quote:
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring (seed) and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Again, the Quran never touches on this very first prophecy and it's fulfillment, yet the Bible does, especially in Revelation Chapter 12.

Satan brought up two legal issues which would take some time to prove as would be the case in any court trial. The first legal issue was , Does God have the right to determine what a right and wrong course are ? and does he have the right to impose requirements or restrictions as he did with the tree in the middle of the garden of Eden called, "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad" ?

Adam and Eve's obedience to this simple command gave evidence as to their recognition of Almighty god as the supreme being and acceptance of his guidance to set righteous principles and standards. Their disobeying this command to not eat from the tree was actually symbolic of their making their own decision to determine for themselves what their standard of right and wrong was. This is where Satan is said to have commited the first lie. He said Adam and Eve would not die if they ate from the tree and that was a lie because they are indeed dead, though not immediately. Satan's challenge went beyond humankind, it also took into account of all intelligent creation, which included the Angels. Millions of these did eventually take Satan's side of the issue of self determination or rule as Revelation Chapter 12 explains.

There is yet a second issue. The book of Job is yet another important book of the Bible in which Moslems claim to believe in and follow. The account in the opening chapters again deals with this legal issue as in a court case where Satan again accuses God of protecting the faithful and it is only for selfish reasons that obedience comes from the faithful because of a reward and nothing more. Although the righteous man Job is unknowingly being put on trial here and was proving faithful in the first test or trial, it is really all of mankind who is being accused of phony or false worship to Almighty God Jehovah. Look at
Job 2:3-4 - "American Standard Version"
Quote:
"And Jehovah said unto Satan, 'Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect (blameless) and upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil: and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

"And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Skin for Skin, yea, all that a man (not just Job, but the nature of all mankind) hath he will give for his life."
This is where the basic principals of the Mosaic Law which was given to the nation of Israel helped to explain this legal issue. The Israelites were commanded to make regular sacrifice which reminded them of their constant sinful state as imperfect humans in need of a redeemer. The other part of the Law which illustrated the Legal aspects was the principal of an "Eye for and Eye" of which Moslems are well aware. Adam himself lost perfection for all his offspring. He could no longer pass on what he no longer possessed. He failed in his perfect integrity as a human being obedient to God almighty. The Bible states that no man can sacrifice for even his brother as a ransom to God.
Psalm 49: 7-9 - "New International version"
Quote:
"No man can redeem the life of another or give God a ransome for him

"the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough

that he should live on forever and not see decay."
Mohammad himself was an imperfect man and could not offer the sacrifice that was required legally to settle Satan's legal challenge. Jesus Christ was the only perfect choice to prove Satan an absolute liar with regard to a perfect man remaining faithful all the way to even the point of death. Again the "Eye for an Eye" principal here of a perfect human life for another perfect human life as a perfect sacrifice for fallen mankind. This is why a study of the Mosaic Law goes beyond looking at it as a mere constitution for running the Israelite nation. Moslems can't appreciate this, but then again niether do most of those in Christendom themselves do not understand the legal issue or challenge that Satan the Devil presented. Most of Christendom promotes self-rule by means of Democracy through various separate nations as the answer to all of mankinds problems. Moslems do likewise believe in various self rule experiments through their nations. They likewise do not have any sort of unity among themselves, with the acception of hating the west and Christendon. Christianity today should be promoting Government by God (God's Kingdom) with Christ as it's King , rather than democracy, but they don't. Mankind has proven itself a miserable failure as to it's pursuit of self determination or self rule.

The other point of where both Moslems and most of Christendom fail is their belief or pursuit of a world conversion, even by force if necessary. This was never the intention from the beginning from the author of the bible. Everyone still has free will and choice.

Rather than presenting this discussion in an accusing sort of way as in the beginning, simply ask further detailed questions for things you really don't understand.
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Old 12-06-2008, 10:57 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,507,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samankaru View Post
Hi Fundamentalist

It seems that there is something wrong with you fundamentally.

You dont know about the Bible Nor you know about the Quran

You misinterpret certain words in the Quran because of your ignorance
LOL....but you don't misinterpret the bible? Dude I have not even got into a real discussion with you on the bible and to be honest I really don't care.

Why don't you tell these "good" people what is one of your duties. You must convert us infidels to Islam, let's see how honest you are. What must you do to us infidels if we choose to exercise our "free will" given to us by our Christian God and reject the loving ranks of Islam?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-06-2008 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
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So Jesus was merely a prophet? And so was Muhammad? And both was a slave to the Almighty Allah? And this 'miraculous code' that you speak of, one would have to learn the Arabic language in order to understand the things of God? Am I following you? Do you speak Arabic? And is it a prerequisite to becoming a Muslim, speaking writing and reading Arabic? And if it's not, then how do you know that the english, "un-coded version of the Quran is authentic? And if it is a prerequisite to becoming Muslim, why would the God of your bible make it so difficult to follow Him? Because the God of my bible, Jesus Christ does'nt burden us. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."





PS: You don't have to worry about Betsey being converted to anything. I am just trying to understand so that I am not quick to judge the things that I don't understand.

Last edited by Betsey Lane; 12-06-2008 at 03:45 PM..
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:54 PM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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You know...it seems to me that both sides in this discussion are more intent on proving their own point than they are in showing love and respect. Why can't you each (all) respect the other's beliefs and allow that in both books, the Bible and the Quran, there are truths and there are stories, fables and myths? If there is a God/Allah watching over this earth He must be very sad to see so much dissent over how His message is being delivered.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
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I can only speak for Betsey, As I've stated, in POST # 27............................
See specifically the PS below, no, not on this page, POST# 27 and don't you be so quick to judge.

Matter of fact, if you go back to the very first page of the thread, you'll see that me and the O.P. have had a very clean, non controversial conversation going.

As I've stated over and over again in many of my posting. I'm not here on CD, but for one thing, it's to spread the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The convicting of the heart BELONGS to the Holy Spirit. A job to big for Betsey. That's all.




Thank you.

Last edited by Betsey Lane; 12-06-2008 at 04:15 PM..
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Old 12-06-2008, 09:51 PM
 
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Hi Betsey and the rest of others

Thanks for your wonderful approach and respect the way you communicate.

We all should understand that we do not know each other and we cannot convert anyone to any religion by throwing allegations to each other.

Yes I agree that i may have gone beyond my limits in trying to convince others towards what i think right. As a human i have done mistakes in my life in the past and might do it in the future. But I'll try my level best to follow what the teachings of Quran says and that is confirmed even in the Bible.

"You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."
[Quran 16:125]

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."
[Bible, 1 Peter 3:15]

Yes if we are really following the Quran and the Bible first we should follow it by example before we invite others towards it.

I hope everyone will agree with this and lets take this conversation in to a more mature professional manner if not we will be just wasting our valuable time typing words in to this forum without any value for it.

Any way i will try to answer all the questions raised towards me (Which i have to handle alone where because i dont see anyone who can support me with the teachings of the Quran is not available in this forum)

I earnestly request all of you to focus on one issue at a time then discuss about it come to a conclusion (If cannot come to a conclusion agree upon it) and then move on to the next topic

If this is not done we will not reach to any conclusion even if we continue this for centuries.

When summarized all the post what i mainly feel is that there is one question which we discuss in different angles

Which is the authenticity of The Quran and The Bible
Which scripture is the true message of the creator of this universe?

Shall we discuss this point first which will take us towards a positive path.

I dont say in anyway that i am right all the time. What i do is i express my opinion based on my experience and knowledge i have gained.

If i am wrong please enlighten me with facts i am ready to accept the truth.

Why should i follow something blindly when there is a reality in existence.
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