Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction ? (Mormons, prophecies, gospels, Israel)

[samankaru]

Yes indeed i agree with you that GOD dosent Change he needs to change.

But we are inferior and god has given us the opportunity to learn and acquire knowledge
The 21st century has given us opportunities in that respect to think clearly where are ancestors did not have

[Whyte Byrd]

Originally Posted by samankaru

Yes indeed i agree with you that GOD dosent Change he needs to change.

I like him just as he is. Someone who doesn't turn with the tide is someone who can be counted on.

Originally Posted by samankaru

But we are inferior and god has given us the opportunity to learn and acquire knowledge

Ok. But be careful that you don't confuse knowledge with wisdom.

Originally Posted by samankaru

The 21st century has given us opportunities in that respect to think clearly where are ancestors did not have

You lost me.

[samankaru]

OOPS !!!

It is one of the greatest mistake I have made

by typing "Yes indeed i agree with you that GOD dosent Change he needs to change."
instead i meant was
"Yes indeed i agree with you that GOD dosent Change he needs not to change."

I ask Almighty God for the greatest mistake i did in not typing "not" in my sentence which was not my intention at all

God Knows the best

[samankaru]

What i really wanted to express is that

There is no necessity for God to change because he is already perfect.

There is nothing to improve when something is already perfect

[elwill]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

Paul DID NOT bring in any new Christianity, and most Christians that I know believe in Christianity based on Jesus teachings and not anyone elses. Where ever you got your false information , it's way off base.

this is the most important point

give me your evidence from the words of jesus that persons whom not believe in divinty of jesus or his death on the cross are not believers

thanx

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by elwill

this is the most important point

give me your evidence from the words of jesus that persons whom not believe in divinty of jesus or his death on the cross are not believers

thanx

I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps it's your word structure that is confusing or missing something. As we've spoken before on this, I don't believe in the Trinity, and I certainly don't believe in the pagan Cross as a symbol of Christianity. I've given you links on this in the past , and what exactly did you do with them ??? Beyond that , I'm not sure what you are looking for.

Your colleague Samankaru who started off this thread with the sarcastic title of "Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction ? and followed that up with condescending tone and sanctimonious platitudes against Christianity. Actually his flavour was much the same as your nemisis , Christian_Arab's tone towards you. I'm not going there with this. He has'nt answered any of my questons either, but he did post some info about Muslims believing in all the teachings of Jesus Christ.

So I'll deal with those teachings of Jesus and perhaps we'll see how Islam measures up, if indeed they do actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Perhaps my response there will answer some of your questions.

[elwill]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps it's your word structure that is confusing or missing something. As we've spoken before on this, I don't believe in the Trinity, and I certainly don't believe in the pagan Cross as a symbol of Christianity. I've given you links on this in the past , and what exactly did you do with them ??? Beyond that , I'm not sure what you are looking for.

lets start from the beginning , it's really good to know that you don't believe in trinity

anyway , what do you think the main differences is between your beliefs and muslims's beliefs ?

So I'll deal with those teachings of Jesus and perhaps we'll see how Islam measures up, if indeed they do actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Perhaps my response there will answer some of your questions.

i agree with you
so i suggest to start with my question
from your point of view , what do you think the differences is between the two religions ?

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by samankaru

Hi All

We as Muslims completely accept the teachings of Jesus, Moses and all the other prophets but never accept the present day available copy of copy of copy of ..copy of the bible may it be the old testament or the new testament. Because it is no authenticated version of the original available. In the meantime whatever available's have more that 300 versions contradicting each other and the most important thing is the people who follow it agree that it has over 40,000 errors on it (Christian Scholars says that not the Muslims)

So as humans with intelligence why should we follow it blindly without pondering of its contents.

Alright, let's ponder the contents of at least two of the major teachings of Jesus Christ , that both Christendom and Islam say they believe in. Then we'll see how both Christendom and Islam measure up believing and practicing these vital teachings of Jesus Christ.

First off it would seem that the apostle Paul was criticized by you folks for not promoting Christ's teachings , but rather his own. That could'nt be further from the truth. Take for example Paul's scriptural warning here at
Colossians 2:8 - "New International Version"

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principals of this world rather than on Christ."

That was how the apostle Paul warned the first century Christians about the dangers of following human philosophy. In time however , early Christianity had fallen victim to apostate teaching after the death of the apostles and early congregations founding older men put in position of responsiblity for caring for the needs of early Christian congregations. Here's how Paul put it at
Acts 20:29-30 - "New International Version"

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

The so called Christian Crusaders whom your Moslem ancestors fought against centuries ago also missed the point that living "according to the Christ" means much more than simply professing allegiance to Jesus Christ. You may also want to take note that the quote above by the Apostle Paul was actually a restatement of a warning Jesus actually gave himself to his disciples.
Matthew 7:15-21 - "New International Version"

"Watch out for false prophets, they will come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them."

"Not everyone saying to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of the heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

In truth , those so called Christian Crusaders had fallen prey to the empty philosophy of wicked men. You may want to get for yourself a copy of the Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" , by McClintock and Strong, as they give good reference to the early apostate church history and why it was so easy for the average Christian to take up the sword and kill others, when their own Bishops , as they were called , "became reknowned as military men." A "warlike spirit became so common among the clergyman, that whenever anything was to be gained [by it] they were ready for war."

What's sad is that Jesus Christ , nor his apostles ever directed any Christian to fight and literally go to war as a Christian. So what led to this situation ??? As I've already stated , after the apostles dies off, this deception and worldly philosophy crept in. A corrupted church became more and more entangled in the secular state. Then in the fourth century came the pagan Emporer Constantine who supposedly converted on his deathbed to Christianity. Here's what that same Cyclopedia syas then happened, "the exchange of the Idol standards for the banner of the Cross laid every Christian under obligation to serve as a soldier." Then the Cyclopedia says that for a humane or Godly person to get involved in "the diabolism of war, as systematically practiced in ancient or modern times cannot for a moment be reconciled with . . . the principles of Christianity." So what exactly did Jesus teach on this ???

The early Christians never participated in any bloodbath of any war. There are two main principles that Jesus taught that they believed in. First, if you remember the account of Jesus arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus instructed his disciples to sell something and purchase at least one sword to take along with them, they found two swords. He had no intention for them to use the sword , but he was about to teach his disciples an object lesson in remaining peacable. When the men came to arrest Jesus, the apostle Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the servants or slaves of the high priest who was arresting Jesus. Seems like a normal and natural thing to do to protect his master, but here was Jesus response.
Matthew 26:52-53 - "New International Version"

"Put your sword back in it's place", Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of Angels?"

So Christ's followers were not to go to war and kill others or for any reason, religious or otherwise. Jesus also stated a second important point to his followers, and that was to keep separate from the world around them. This is illustrated by what Jesus said the the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate who asked him if he was the king of the Jews.
John 18:36 - "New International version"

"Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my attendants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

So no involvement in this world's politics and no involvement in this world's wars.

However, what has history shown us about Christendom ??? Sadly it's the exact opposite. Unfortunately it is the same with other religions around the world. Clergyman of all faiths are in bed with politics and are extremely bloodguilty respecting their participation in war.

So how do Moslems view Jesus teachings of no war and no politics ??? Do they believe and follow him in this regard ???

[elwill]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

So how do Moslems view Jesus teachings of no war and no politics ??? Do they believe and follow him in this regard ???

so you base your argument about peace from this event

"Put your sword back in it's place", Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of Angels?"

i can't see it one of the commandments
i see it wisdom command regarding to specific situation , he saved them from the death by this command


you know !!
prophet mohammed (pbuh) didn't command his followers to fight or to kill anyone while he was in mekkah for many years

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by elwill

so you base your argument about peace from this event

"Put your sword back in it's place", Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of Angels?"

i can't see it one of the commandments
i see it wisdom command regarding to specific situation , he saved them from the death by this command


you know !!
prophet mohammed (pbuh) didn't command his followers to fight or to kill anyone while he was in mekkah for many years

How sad. Most of Christendom agrees with you. They see absolutely no relevance to Jesus object lesson of remaining peaceable with all men. Guess that's why your side and theirs fought for years over real estate issues.

However , having said that, here's what the very early Christians did as a result of their correct grasp of what Jesus commanded. Jesus never taught the followers to revolt against the Roman occupation, or for that matter take over power from what was left of the Jewish nation. Note what the book,
"On the Road to Civilization, A World History" (Philadelphia 1937) A. Heckel and J. Sigman pp. 237-238

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favour by those who ruled the pagan world . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens . . . They would not hold political office."

"The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries" (New York 1848) Augustus Neander, translated from German by H.J. Rose pg 168

"The Christians stayed aloof and distinct from the state as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavoring to instill more and more of the holy feeling into the citizens of the state."

"The Rise of Christianity (London 1947) E.W. Barnes, pg 333

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman Emporer from 161 to 180 C.E.] no Christian became a soldier, and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in the military."

"The Anti-Nicene Fathers" (Grand Rapids, Mich reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition) edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson Vol. 1 , pg 254

"We who were filled with war , and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth change our warlike weapons- our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,- and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified." "Justin Martyer in Dialogue With Trypho a Jew" (2nd Century C.E.)

"History of Christianity (New York 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162-163

"They refused to take any active part in the civil administration, or military defense of the empire . . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes."

However it seems you actually have to see the word command in a sentance from Jesus. Here is a command given at:
John 13:34-35 - "New International Version"

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have Loved you, so you love one another."

"By this all will know you are my disciples, if you love one another."

The apostle Paul who you both claim to have issue with as some apostate Christian, actually encouraged Christians to follow Jesus commands this way.
Galatians 6:2 - "New International Version"

"Carry each others burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the Law of the Christ."

In the end , 'elwill', if not killing your brother, let alone your fellow man is something distasteful to you, then your religion and apostate Christianity have at least have until the Great Tribulation & Armageddon to carry out your belief system.