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Old 12-11-2008, 11:26 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,515,210 times
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Default anyone ever heard of the Transcendental Argument?

For the existence of God?

I have yet to see a solid refutation of it. Most people give a weak, half-hearted lame response....but I have yet to see a really good one.


The Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God

Got to the link above to get a detailed view of it, but in a nutshell:

"Logical absolutes exist. Logical absolutes are conceptual by nature, are not dependent on the space, time, physical properties, or human nature.
They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter) because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true. Logical Absolutes are not the product of human minds because human minds are different, not absolute. But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind is authoring them. This mind is called God. "
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:18 PM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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This is from the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry site. If it was from a Secular site it would and could be "transcended" in another direction entirely.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esselcue View Post
This is from the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry site. If it was from a Secular site it would and could be "transcended" in another direction entirely.

So, you can't refute it?
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
So, you can't refute it?
Hey look, I can play the same game!


Transcendental argument for the non-existence of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
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As with any good arguement, i dont think i can entirely refute it, but i can poke a couple holes in it.

First off:
Quote:
They are not the product of the physical universe (space, time, matter) because if the physical universe were to disappear, logical absolutes would still be true.
Perhaps logical absolutes arnt the product of these things, but they are greatly dependant on them. For instance if the make up of the universe was vastly different than it is now, wouldnt that influence the logical absolutes for it? Also how can we claim to know any logical abosolutes when there is still so much we dont understand?

Quote:
But, since logical absolutes are always true everywhere and not dependent upon human minds, it must be an absolute transcendent mind is authoring them. This mind is called God.
Wouldnt logical absoultes be beyond god for them to be absolute? There have been many instances in the bible, and announce by believers where god changes his mind. If god can change his mind, then would these logical absolutes have to be beyond god in order to be absolute?

Also with this arguement logical absolute and the existance of god the same, isnt that circular logic?

And one final note, with this argument, how do you know its your god it is proving? What if its Allah, FSM, Zues, Odin......? This arguement gives equal validity for all of mankinds deitys.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post


I will address that argument after you refute mine.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:02 PM
 
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I fee like this can be a good topic but I fear it will get buggered by logical fallacies.I mean my first impresion was "Transcendental argument? More like anthropomorphic non-sequitir."

Firstly, It's an assertion to say logical absolutes exist, It's also a contradiction to say something exists and then to say it is mutually exclusive from nature.

Secondly, the statement "logical absolutes exists" makes no sense to me. Are they real? No, they are mathematical statements that live in a platonic universe whose concepts can apply to real life situations or not. Euclidean geometry applies to all 2-dimensional surfaces but when we get a surface on a 3-D sphere, then it doesn't work.

Thirdly, "if you can't refute it then it must be true" is quite suspect.

Last and not least we have occam's very sharp razor. The christian god isn't defined as the compilation of logical absolutes, she has thousands of other characteristics(some of which quite human) If we remove all the elements that do not come from the premises then we end up with god being defined as logical absolutes(ie your conclusion). You'd need to make a separate argument for omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence as well as any involvement with jesus.

I away your reply kdbrich.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forkpower View Post
As with any good arguement, i dont think i can entirely refute it, but i can poke a couple holes in it.

First off:


Perhaps logical absolutes arnt the product of these things, but they are greatly dependant on them. For instance if the make up of the universe was vastly different than it is now, wouldnt that influence the logical absolutes for it? Also how can we claim to know any logical abosolutes when there is still so much we dont understand?
So you're ok with the idea that logical absolutes whether or not the universe exists?
Quote:


Wouldnt logical absoultes be beyond god for them to be absolute? There have been many instances in the bible, and announce by believers where god changes his mind. If god can change his mind, then would these logical absolutes have to be beyond god in order to be absolute?
No. "Since the Logical Absolutes are transcendent, absolute, are perfectly consistent, and are independent of the universe, then they reflect a transcendent, absolute, perfect, and independent mind. "


Quote:
Also with this arguement logical absolute and the existance of god the same, isnt that circular logic?
No. We know that logic exists. The existence of said logic proves God's existence.
Quote:


And one final note, with this argument, how do you know its your god it is proving? What if its Allah, FSM, Zues, Odin......? This arguement gives equal validity for all of mankinds deitys.
Let's first establish the fact that you have no argument for it.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 5,537,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I will address that argument after you refute mine.
So you can't refute it?

See? I can play this game just as well as you can! Isn't this fun? Whee!
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:19 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,515,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
I fee like this can be a good topic but I fear it will get buggered by logical fallacies.I mean my first impresion was "Transcendental argument? More like anthropomorphic non-sequitir."

Firstly, It's an assertion to say logical absolutes exist, It's also a contradiction to say something exists and then to say it is mutually exclusive from nature.
Logical absolutes don't exist? huh? a can sometimes equal and not equal be at the same time?
Quote:

Secondly, the statement "logical absolutes exists" makes no sense to me. Are they real? No, they are mathematical statements that live in a platonic universe whose concepts can apply to real life situations or not. Euclidean geometry applies to all 2-dimensional surfaces but when we get a surface on a 3-D sphere, then it doesn't work.
In the universe we exist in, something can't be both equal and not equal to something at a given point.

Quote:

Thirdly, "if you can't refute it then it must be true" is quite suspect.



I away your reply kdbrich.
If you have 2 options and one is proven false, then the other must be true.
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