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And as a mormon, you'd consider yourself to be Christian?
Mormons are, by definition, Christian. This isn't something that has to be looked at very closely. A few Evangelicals and Fundamentalists want to change the definition of "Christian" in order to achieve their own sectarian purposes, but the rest of the world rightly ignores it and otherwise universally classify Latter-day Saints as "Christian."
And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God. Mormon 3:21
And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God; 2 Nephi 26:12
Jesus is indeed God. I and other LDS responders here have tried to explain Christ's relationship to the Father.
And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God. Mormon 3:21
And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God; 2 Nephi 26:12
Jesus is indeed God. I and other LDS responders here have tried to explain Christ's relationship to the Father.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that according to mormon theology, Christ is the brother of Lucifer, and is the physical child of God. He is not God. The mormon church does not teach the Trinity.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that according to mormon theology, Christ is the brother of Lucifer, and is the physical child of God. He is not God. The mormon church does not teach the Trinity.
Do you disagree with your church's leaders?
Apparently you feel qualified to teach "mormon theology" to the Mormons and if they disagree with your beliefs you accuse them of not following their leaders??
If you had studied at reputable LDS sources and knew more about Heavenly Father's plan of happiness and the nature of God you might understand our beliefs much better. But ok, I'll try a real short lesson in basic "mormon theology".
I believe that we all lived as spirit children of God the Father for perhaps eons of earth years before a physical body was created for us by mortal parents and we, in spirit body form patterned after the image and likeness of God, inhabited that physical body for an earthly experience.
Prior to the creation of this world there was a disagreement, a war (perhaps a war of words.) Lucifer, one of our elder brothers, led the rebellion against Heavenly Father and he and one third of our spirit brothers and sisters were cast out of the heavens never to get a physical body or resurrection.
Everyone who has ever been or ever will be born to earthly parents on this planet was obedient to Heavenly Father in the premortal existence and was or is now being tried and tested to see if they will be obedient when they are not in Father's presence. Our choices here are just as important as were our choices in the premortal existence (to follow Father and Jesus, or to follow Lucifer) and the eternal consequences of disobedience perhaps just as severe.
But you can learn all about the Plan of Happiness and our premortal existence at Mormon.org - Home or by inviting the LDS missionaries into your home to teach you what we believe to be true, no obligation.
You are correct, the LDS Church does not teach the unbiblical 3rd and 4th century concept that God is some incomprehensible who knows what without body parts or passions. Christ never did teach that.
I personally believe:
1. That Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer and of me and of you and of all of Heavenly Father's children.
2. That the physical body of Christ was created by Mary who was mortal, and by God the Father. Jesus needed to be half God, half man to fulfill his mission on earth and work through the atonement. The spirit body of Christ was created by God the Father, the same as our spirit bodies were created.
3. Christ is God but he is not God the Father and he is not the Holy Spirit. Those three are one in mind and purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (God the Father's spirit children) but they are each separate and distinct beings. The manmade trinity doctrine is flat out wrong, it prevents many sincere people from knowing their Father in Heaven and their own potential.
So it IS true that a good mormon can become a god on his own planet with his wife and make lots of babies to populate the planet?
Perhaps I was unclear in my personal response to your statement, I'll try it again at the risk of pressing beyond the mark.
I do believe that I am literally a spirit child of God the Father and that He has provided a plan of happiness whereby if I am obedient to His commandments and my covenants with Him I have the potential to 'grow up' and become like Him.
My marriage to my beautiful wife was sealed not just for time (until death do you part) but for all eternity. That sealing took place at an altar in one of the LDS temples. It was pronounced by a faithful and humble high priest to whom was delegated the apostolic sealing power. The words he spoke were given word for word from God so that there is no mistake when that which is sealed on earth is also sealed in heaven.
I believe that if my wife and I each live worthily and keep all of our temple covenants that after our death there is no power that can separate us except our own free will and choice.
I believe that if the two of us continue to keep our temple covenants and God's commandments to the best of our ability to the end of our lives, that we will eventually receive resurrected celestial bodies and because of the atonement and mercy of Jesus Christ will enter into the highest mansion of our Heavenly Father's kingdoms of glory. From there I personally think it is possible for us to advance to the point where the two of us will be taught how to organize spirit children in the same manner that our Heavenly Father organized our spirit bodies. We will in effect have "eternal increase" though I doubt that we will be restricted to a "planet" as you suggest, and will certainly not be populating planets with physical bodies as you perhaps infer.
But, having said that, I think it much more prudent to get down to earth with such line upon line things as faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and forsaking of our sins, baptism at the hands of one holding proper priesthood authority, and the laying on of hands of the Melchizedek Priesthood to receive the right to the constant companionship and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Then, having a hope in Jesus Christ we can if we so choose press forward towards eternal marriage and eternal families.
That's how I see it personally, other LDS may see it differently, I speak only for myself.
"Can you seriously place cattle, milk, horses, asses, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheat, grapes, silk, steel, bellow, brass, breast plates, chains, copper, iron, mining ore, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots in pre-Columbian America despite what archaeologists will tell you?"
There is also no archeological evidence that the great flood happened, no Noah's ark has been found, and no evidence that the Egyptians ever had slaves.
3. Christ is God but he is not God the Father and he is not the Holy Spirit. Those three are one in mind and purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (God the Father's spirit children) but they are each separate and distinct beings. The manmade trinity doctrine is flat out wrong, it prevents many sincere people from knowing their Father in Heaven and their own potential.
In response to your question about how I'm "qualified" to teach mormon theology to mormons? I'm not. But I have studied enough about mormonism to understand some of what your church teaches.
Thank you for finally clearing that up. My whole point was that by disbelieving the Trinity you have a very different version of God than the Bible.
It's just not something that the nice young men who appear at our doors tell us. You guys love to use the same terminology as any Christian church, but with very different meanings.
Really? What if they left it because they never understood it? What if they are bitter about something and intentionally misrepresent it? I can think of lots of reasons why the simple qualification of "having once been a member of a group" does not mean the person suddenly gains any special expertise in the matter over someone who has remained in the group, and I can think of some reasons why such a person may be below average in terms of qualification to discuss the group.
I'm guessing that I've read more of Joseph Smith's history than everyone in that class put together. I've probably read a lot more than your teacher ever did on the subject. I disagree. Other professional historians also disagree. So who do we believe?
That is a decision only you can make. If you are interested in more information, I'd be happy to try to provide it. If you are simply announcing your decision and have no intention of reconsidering it, then I can only say, "Have a nice day!"
Looking at why people leave a religion is very informative. If you can't answer the questions they left because of, you're in trouble. And I'm not talking just one person. There are many ex mormons out there talking about why they left the faith and many are saying the same things. It's those questions you must look at and answer to know what you, truely, believe.
No, the histories of the founders of the four religions we studied were put together by historians and archiologists not by the students. The class had multiple texts written by historical and archeological experts. We did not do our own history. We were not qualified to do so. We followed the lives of each of the founders, pretty much from birth to death then asked the question of whether or not we would follow these men.
No, I don't want your version of Joseph Smith's history. The one in the history books is good enough for me. People with agendas often twist things. The only agenda in this class was to look at things from a different perspective. As was the course I took on the synoptic gospels and the one that did a literary analysis of Genesis. We challenged our own faith as well. Pretty much shook mine to the core. So much so that I spent the next 10 years studying and finding the answers to the hard questions. I stand in a better position today because of it but, as usual, getting misconceptions out of your head is a painful process.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-21-2008 at 08:06 AM..
In response to your question about how I'm "qualified" to teach mormon theology to mormons? I'm not. But I have studied enough about mormonism to understand some of what your church teaches.
Thank you for finally clearing that up. My whole point was that by disbelieving the Trinity you have a very different version of God than the Bible.
It's just not something that the nice young men who appear at our doors tell us. You guys love to use the same terminology as any Christian church, but with very different meanings.
LDS missionaries teach the plain and simple truth. The confusing unbiblical trinity doctrine taught by some other churches was not taught by Jesus Christ or his apostles regardless of how popular it happens to be in our time. In my opinion that doctrine alone has been responsible for millions of good and sincere people never during their mortal lives coming to a knowledge of God, and departing this earth without ever having known the incredible potential of each and every human being, all children of a loving Heavenly Parent.
The reason why there are apparently more than 10,000 Christian churches is because scholars and their followers interpret the books of the bible differently, and each thinks their version is the right one. Your statement: "you have a very different version of God than the Bible" is evidence of that.
I disagree that my "version" is incorrect. And I base that certainty on being able to see a much bigger picture, a broader context than those who try to command God to never again speak to a prophet or ask him to write down what he hears. I know that God has not closed the canon, that he continues to speak to His children, and that He again has placed on this earth living Apostles and a Prophet to guide His children in these latter days.
Those 10,000 or so churches are evidence of the necessity of having additional scriptures and a living Prophet. It's sad that influential scholars over the centuries combined and decided that God is "incomprehensible." They took Him away from the people who accept the scholars and reject the promptings of the Spirit of God who would teach them differently.
It's sad that scholars came up with the notion that the few books that councils of men put into the bible from among many available are all we're ever going to get from a loving Heavenly Father.
The good news that Latter-day Saints declare to the world is that the same resurrected Jesus Christ who interacted with many witnesses soon after his death, as documented in the New Testament, continues to interact with God's children on earth and once again heads his church organized as it was anciently on a foundation of revelation, authorized priesthood, and apostles and prophets.
As a child growing up in a Catholic home I sometimes felt that I had been born in the wrong time. I wanted to have been born when there were apostles living on the earth. It was not until I was in my early twenties that those "nice young men" appeared at my doorstep and taught me the TRUTH about Jesus Christ, not just countless confusing conflicting interpretations of the bible.
I learned from those nice young men that I had not been born at the wrong time...
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