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God is cruel based on the fact that by not accepting him, a good lifelong atheist is not going to heaven. Also, many believe the eternal fires of hell are an appropriate punishment for many. Many in different religions are bombarded with the horrible consequences in case a certain book is not followed. Fear is a huge part of imposing faith - this is not true for atheists.
I like a part of reincarnation because the Hitler your god would save (assuming Hitler accepted god at the last moment) will not be saved in the other scenario - he will probably end up as a bug or something and will pay the price of his deeds, not of his ignorance of Jesus or not accepting your god. In a way, the punishment fits the crime and there is no last-minute weaseling out. This bug will work his way through the chain again. Problem I have with reincarnation (which I do not profess to understand) is that when you are a lower life form, you do not have a chance (like humans) to be more moral and speed up the lifecycle process - you simply have to go thru the process.
Speaking of reincarnation, Hindus are ok with people without belief - you simply live your life well (Karma Yogi) and will be fine. This is just one of the ways to their redemption-equivalent. Seems like a much more practical and forgiving approach (if you are not an atheist). I bet many there are also convinced your approach is not the ONLY path. And that is where I have a huge problem with religions - there is no "one" god - and, if god exists, it is illogical that there are so many religions claiming to be the only ones. The all powerful's marketing literature should have consisted of 1 book (with no room for "interpretations") & this would have historically saved the lives of millions of people.
If you are good enough for heaven on your own merit, I'm sure God will hear your argument. Personally, I don't believe any of us are good enough. Which is why God came in the form of Jesus and lived the perfect life we cannot live for us.
I believe that forgiveness is the only path because I don't believe it is possible for us humans to live perfect lives. If I have to keep doing this over and over until I get it right, the cycle will never stop. It's an impossible task.
If you are good enough for heaven on your own merit, I'm sure God will hear your argument. Personally, I don't believe any of us are good enough. Which is why God came in the form of Jesus and lived the perfect life we cannot live for us.
I believe that forgiveness is the only path because I don't believe it is possible for us humans to live perfect lives. If I have to keep doing this over and over until I get it right, the cycle will never stop. It's an impossible task.
Perfectionists abound among humans . . . it is a disorder. Every physical embryo that is born is not perfect . . . what is this obsession with every spiritual embryo must be born perfect? But some physical embryos do not mature enough and miscarry. What is the fate of spiritual embryos that miscarry? We must be born of the Spirit . . . that cannot happen while we are in the womb of this physical body.
If you are good enough for heaven on your own merit, I'm sure God will hear your argument. Personally, I don't believe any of us are good enough. Which is why God came in the form of Jesus and lived the perfect life we cannot live for us. .
Based on your interpretation, I the athesit can never be "good enough" because of the acceptance thing. OTOH, a Hitler can never be bad enough provided he has last minute acceptance. There is a problem here. Also, I also do not understand the emphasis on "perfect" life. If it were the case, we should not have been created the way we were. Please do not tell me their acceptance of JC will cure this because you have not answered why such a large part of the world (Buddhists, Hindus etc) have not been given a chance to go to heaven. JC really did not create a level playing field.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I believe that forgiveness is the only path because I don't believe it is possible for us humans to live perfect lives. If I have to keep doing this over and over until I get it right, the cycle will never stop. It's an impossible task.
If you are referring to the reincarnation cycle, I do not think they want perfection. They realize the ying/yang of life. And yes, in their interpretation of their texts, a Hitler will probably have to pay the price regardless of his sudden bout of last-minute piety.
Based on your interpretation, I the athesit can never be "good enough" because of the acceptance thing. OTOH, a Hitler can never be bad enough provided he has last minute acceptance. There is a problem here. Also, I also do not understand the emphasis on "perfect" life. If it were the case, we should not have been created the way we were. Please do not tell me their acceptance of JC will cure this because you have not answered why such a large part of the world (Buddhists, Hindus etc) have not been given a chance to go to heaven. JC really did not create a level playing field.
If you are referring to the reincarnation cycle, I do not think they want perfection. They realize the ying/yang of life. And yes, in their interpretation of their texts, a Hitler will probably have to pay the price regardless of his sudden bout of last-minute piety.
No, none of us are good enough acceptance or not. If we could be good enough, we wouldn't need to accept anything. We need to because we're not good enough. No one can be.
Whether a Hitler pays a price is irrelevent to me. What should matter is what he learned. I am certain of one thing. Those who are forgiven much appreciate forgiveness more than those who deem themselves not in need of forgiveness. A "Hitler" who sought redmption in the 12th hour would probably love God more than someone who felt no need for forgiveness but only accepted to avoid a hell they felt they did not deserve.
Remember Saul/Paul? Those who are forgiven much appreciate what has been done for them.
Ivorytickler said: "This is why I can't accept the lake of fire punishment picture of hell."
That is disputing Jesus' words. Jesus spoke of a rich man who lifted up his eyes after death in hell.
(Luke 16:23-24)"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Jesus gave John the Revelator more about hell fire.
(Revelation 9-15)"... and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them [those who allow the devil to deceive them]. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
No, none of us are good enough acceptance or not. If we could be good enough, we wouldn't need to accept anything. We need to because we're not good enough. No one can be.
Whether a Hitler pays a price is irrelevent to me. What should matter is what he learned. I am certain of one thing. Those who are forgiven much appreciate forgiveness more than those who deem themselves not in need of forgiveness. A "Hitler" who sought redmption in the 12th hour would probably love God more than someone who felt no need for forgiveness but only accepted to avoid a hell they felt they did not deserve.
Remember Saul/Paul? Those who are forgiven much appreciate what has been done for them.
OK - I will give you that since you believe it - not agreeing though.
Moving on, the question related to the bolded part above is why is it that such a large chunk of population in the world is not given a chance to know this "philosopohy" of acceptance of JC? If god is ok in such cases (entry to heaven despite no acceptance of JC - since they never heard of him) - why is god so unforgiving to atheists who have been good al their lives?
Anyone want to answer the lack of level playing field questions I have asked many times .... how could this almighty exclude so many people??
I don't know about others but I believe the final judgement will level the playing field. I think circumstances will be considered. Unto those who are given much, much will be expected. Unto those who were given little, little expected. I believe God will honor all who seek. He is just.
OK - I will give you that since you believe it - not agreeing though.
Moving on, the question related to the bolded part above is why is it that such a large chunk of population in the world is not given a chance to know this "philosopohy" of acceptance of JC? If god is ok in such cases (entry to heaven despite no acceptance of JC - since they never heard of him) - why is god so unforgiving to atheists who have been good al their lives?
There is a huge difference between never hearing the truth and hearing it and choosing to reject it. I believe the two situations will be dealt with differently. I'm not sure what God will do with those who never had the opportunity to know the truth but I do believe his treatment of them will reflect the fact they never had that chance. Those who had the chance and chose to reject are on their own. They have no excuse.
You are very stuck on people being good enough on their own for entry into heaven. As long as you believe you are good enough by your own merit, you don't need God. If you don't need him in this life, you don't need him in the afterlife either. You're on your own.
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