Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Actually, the story works almost as well for a non-ST disease - I imagine that even regular diseases transmit pretty well if the diseased has sex with other people... The only thing that really points to a STD is the ending. Then again maybe the killing of non-virgin women really was an irrational massacre based on irrational "God-given" orders. I might be giving Moses too much credit here...
I think that to solve the question, one would have to know more about diseases, and particularly STDs, during Moses' time (sorry, "in the day of Moses"). I have no idea how much is known about this.
Oh, and I completely approve Deguire's latest post: one should always keep in mind the how and the why the stories were written the way they are.
Actually, the story works almost as well for a non-ST disease - I imagine that even regular diseases transmit pretty well if the diseased has sex with other people... The only thing that really points to a STD is the ending. Then again maybe the killing of non-virgin women really was an irrational massacre based on irrational "God-given" orders. I might be giving Moses too much credit here...
I think that to solve the question, one would have to know more about diseases, and particularly STDs, during Moses' time (sorry, "in the day of Moses"). I have no idea how much is known about this.
Oh, and I completely approve Deguire's latest post: one should always keep in mind the how and the why the stories were written the way they are.
Yes Roxolan, perspective is everything. To the believer they see some beautiful story of rebellion and redemption and such was the design of the writers, however, there are more to these stories than just their spiritual meaning. Some of the stories were probably complete fabrications, others, borrowed myths but I'm sure some were based on true events that were liberally embellished. Reminds me of the stories our people tell in the Caribbean to teach young kids lessons.
Come on if somebody had written the bible last week, and took it to a publisher, they would have told the author to come back when he had thought of a more believeable plot.
Let's be honest, the old testament is barbaric gibberish & the new testament is just a slightly more acceptable version of the old one.
People who say the've seen UFO's are laughed at, but if you tell people that there's a god watching over our planet who made the earth with his bare hands 6000 years ago, some people find that completly acceptable.
The bible was written over centuries by people who in todays terms would be considered ignorant, their knowledge of the world was extremely limited, the scribes controled everything, after all only 1 in 500 people could write and that's being generous.
Actually some of the texts that were written thousands of years ago, that have recently been found, are word for word along side of our scriptures with very little deviation from the original texts. I don't think the OT is barbaric gibberish at all. I gain a lot of insight from it and value it's influence on my life.
If the Bible bothers you so much, maybe you should find another place to post. The OP is asking for comments about texts written in something that you despise, so carry on.
...kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately...(Numbers 31:17)
I think Moses commanded this because it was after all the "non virgin" women who were responsible for using their "goods" to entice the men to worship the idols. It wasn't so much the sex that ticked God off as much as it was the breaking of the first commandment. The Midianite whores stood at the opening of the tents, exposing themselves and the men being led by their "private parts" fell for it, hook, line and sinker. The virgins were probably inside doing the cooking, taking care of the children/household, therefore they were not tainted by the sinful ways of their sisters and maybe even their mothers. Perhaps some of them even secretly despised them for stooping so low. They didn't partake of the sin so they could not be held accountable. Moses also probably felt that they were still young enough to be corrected and useful as future wives.
Did Moses have Zipporah killed? After all, she was both a Midianite and non-virgin and she was also his wife. How about Jethro his father-in-law who may have exposed him to Yahweh when he fled to Midian?
Also, the non-virgin women also had goods they could have exposed too and it is quite interesting the army was allowed to grab them as sex slaves...er, wives.
Naw; you leave out the accountability issue if you do that. The Midianites were generally hostile to Israel, but some of them weren't. Jethro and others were allied with Israel, the ones farther north (as in this account), not so much. Moses, I think, did not want to attack the Moabites or their buddies the Midianites, but rather avoid them as much as possible." Do not attack the Moabites or provoke them to war.." would have been their default position. I would argue they were simply seeking safe passage
before this encounter. What caused the change? Balaak, Moab's king. The goofball. It's clear from the text he didn't believe that he could defeat them: "Now Balaak the son of Zippur saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites. So Moab was in great fear...and Moab was in dread of the sons of Israel." The simple solution? Let 'em through. Balaak's solution? Curse them. Literally. "And Balaak son of Zippor was king of Moab at that time, so he sent messengers to Balaam the son of Beor, at Pethor, which is near the river, in the lands of the sons of his people, to call him, saying...Now therefore, please come, curse this people for me since they are too mighty for me..." When that failed (Balaam and the talking ass-this one is literal, not figurative), Balaam tried another tactic: turn Jehovah against them. It is incorrect, in my opinion, to mistakenly believe that this account is primarily about sex, though it is, obviously, a conspicuous component of the story. The issue is one of fidelity, and Balaam's way of defeating Israel (that was his charge, after all) was to involve Israel in cultic worship, which in Canaanite society would involve fertility rites. Divorce Israel from her God, and, Balaam concluded, she would easily be defeated. And, I think that assessment was correct. Religious apostasy, in my opinion, was the central issue, and sex was a tool to acheive that end. Destructive use of feminine allure, I would say, and, in retrospect, a darn stupid decision. Israel, as you have pointed out, was judged for her apostasy (STD? who cares?), which ended when Phineas stabbed Zimri, a prominent Israelite, while he was having public sex with Cozbi, a prominent Midianite woman (v 8 "he drove the spear through both of them-through the Israelite and into the woman's body"- I guess you could say they were, uh, close to one another). Worse, they were by the Tent of Meting. Kind of like doing it on the steps of the Synagogue-Church-Temple-Shrine-Mosque-fill in the blank. Bad form, that. Typical of accounts of temporal judgement in the OT, there was an opportunity to avoid it by making different choices. As an aside, I know that you don't believe the Biblical account is true, nor do I harbor any illusion of changing your or anyone else's, mind. But really, who doesn't like a good Midianite discussion?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
