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Old 03-01-2010, 11:46 AM
 
4 posts, read 9,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Thankyou for the post kdbrich. I knew about that one, yet I try not to go to deep here on such prophecies. I say that, because even the more obvious prophecies they don't want to believe.
I hate to thread necromancer, but the bible was written over thousands of years...

These prophecies are false because they were written after the event took place. Also, many of the prophecies that were written before are much like the ramblings of Nostradamus and his like... if you throw a million darts at a board, chances are you will eventually hit the bullseye.

Using the bible to prove the bible is much like using my word to prove my word. If I tell you that you are an idiot, you are in fact and idiot because I said you were.

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Old 03-02-2010, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,812 posts, read 9,628,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
......could you give us some examples of what histroy in the Bible is rubbish?
Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.
Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for forty years.


Conclusion: Zeke was wrong. Prophecy failed.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and never has been a "ruinous heap".


Conclusion: Isaiah was wrong. Prophecy failed.

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Christians say that this prophecy was fulfilled when Judas received 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. Matthew 27:9 recites this verse, but incorrectly credits Jeremiah with the prophecy.


Conclusion: The Bible contains mistakes.





Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Read Daniel, chapter 8. It's a book that was written in about 600 BC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I was amazed when I studied that prophecy last semester....it was written at least 300 years prior to the events that it talked about.
No it wasn't. Modern critical biblical scholarship dates it to c.165 BCE.There is general agreement among scholars that Daniel's revelations are actually prophecies after the event.

Sorry about that.
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Moving through this etheria
430 posts, read 500,202 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
The Bible is the only truth that you need,the only source you need to back up scripture if there is a disagreement. It was foolish for you to keep listening to that person ,he beguiled you and pulled you away from the Lord. The love of the Lord comes from the heart, as you read and read the Bible more you have a in depth understanding of its meaning and know that it is the truth.
I read somewhere else that you've been caught doing this on other threads. You simply come in and preach, but ignore the specific debate question, which is: can you logically and convincingly make a circular argument point?

This is not about whether you think that God is the answer, noland. It's about "where's the proof?" in such an illogical approach.

Your approach actually confirms the OP's point, in fact; that hopelessly religious people simply cannot provide any sort of rational argument in support of biblical stories.

So cut it out with the preaching please.
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,175,328 times
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Does not one prove science from science, economics from economic transactions, politics by elections? How is one to prove something from something else? Would one be happier to prove the bible from mel gibson's movie? Or how about being quoted in Moby Dick? Should we prove the truth of our legal books from babylonian sources?
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:40 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,371,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Does not one prove science from science, economics from economic transactions, politics by elections? How is one to prove something from something else? Would one be happier to prove the bible from mel gibson's movie? Or how about being quoted in Moby Dick? Should we prove the truth of our legal books from babylonian sources?
Should you believe a criminal's story because he said it's true or should you investigate beyond taking his word for it? If you used his story to prove his story then no one would ever be convicted.

Is the bible true? Yes, God wrote it.
Did God write it? Yes, the bible said so.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:08 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,175,328 times
Reputation: 151
The criminal attempts to use his story to get off-if he brings in the part where he strangled the little girl (the detective's part) he is screwed (except for our activists that love pedophiles, but then they are busy constructing stories that make them out to be good people, so they avoid the murder part), just as the detective attempts to construct a story to arrest him, the trial attempts to construct a story to free him or fry him. Both use the same operations but the contents are different because the outcomes that are desired must fit various structures. Organizations are similar. If one uses economics to prove religion one is in economics but not religion-its a larger abstraction, but then systems are larger than individuals. One needs to keep the categories distinct. The idea that the bible is true because god wrote it, is based on the idea that god wrote it (I dare anyone to prove that god wrote it-and what would you present? A volcano? would not a god be mad if one did not take his word for it and ask that god pardon one for attempting to prove what god says is true?, after all, he is the god), so all structures moving from that point have to support that premise, other wise, the structure would colapse. That makes good theology, however, a liberal theology based on the idea that some is written from that premise and some ain't, Martin luther King should be added, a modern civil rights premise (?), etc, destruct that premise, and then the authorship becomes questionable. A new authorship theory then needs development and the theory then goes about to prove itself to keep itself in place.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:28 AM
 
26 posts, read 27,404 times
Reputation: 10
Deguire
How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?

Why do you think only one of the two men in the tombs was given a second chance and not both? Why do you think the Spirit wouldn’t allow the savior or Apostles to enter into certain regions or cities?

jennaflorrie
You need to look at the Bible first of all. Its not a fairy story like snow white. The Old Testament is made up of The Laws and then the Old Testament prophets, psalms and proverbs. No one has been able to discount the Bible, which has proven to be accurate in terms of time lines and its desriptions of people and places - also confirmed by archaeologists and historians. The Bible cannot be disproven at all - and yet, it should be quite easy to disprove if the names and places etc were wrong.

Well said, but if you don’t have faith in the word that can change you, what’s the use? Directed to DeGuire and not to jennaflorrie, jenna you are right on girl!

bluepacific
"WHAT IS TRUTH" ???
Well, if we just go by your use of the word "Defense", then it is assumed that we are being attacked and are having to defend ourselves. Looking at all these combat threads which YOU and YOUR comrads have originated, how else do you expect people of faith to answer you ??? With pure intellectualism ??? I and others understand that is what you are looking for, but you won't get it.

I looked through to the end of the threads and couldn’t find a single comment about what you said! I suppose that something must have hit home, what do you think “Deguire”, why wasn’t there a response?

I just love to read threads that cannot be reproved! Like “jennaflorrie and “blue pacific”, hang in there ladies.

Listen folks, I have said this time after time, everyone has faith in something. It’s believing that you are working for or building something personal that will benefit you and or others. This includes building a life for your enjoyment and possibly for family. I know there are some that believe that you live, die and “that’s all folks” (a little humor there). They are called, simply put, nonbelievers who do not and will not move those that have been touched by the power of the creator!

I could speak of faith and the word all day but most don’t want to here or read or waste there time with that, they have heard it time and time again to no avail.

I will only say this!

Faith in truth is only real when you allow it to be so! Will you SEE results, only if you are living by faith in what most don’t want to here or believe.
Its like playing baseball, you can’t get to second base without passing first. You can’t pass first base without hitting the ball and the ball can only go in a certain direction for it to be legal! Does that make since?

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Old 03-04-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,800 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deguire View Post
One of the rules of evangelization (I used to hear) was that in defense of the faith, a Christian was to use "scripture to defend scripture." It made all the sense in the world to me while I was in the fog but looking back, it makes not one lick of sense. I see it on CD quite often. A question is asked about the validity of a particular bible story or biblical passage and then the believer turns around and uses the same book that is being questioned to prove the truth of the story/passage.

Years ago I used to do the same thing and an atheist used to keep telling me, "you cannot use the bible to prove the bible." I never really paid attention to what he was saying because I was so committed to the idea that using scripture to prove scripture was the way to go. Now I realize that what he was essentially saying is that such a tactic amounts to nothing more than circular argument.

Imagine sitting with someone, obsessed with Snow White, and trying to tell them Snow White does not exist and they keep telling you, "Well you might not believe it, but according to page 15 in the story, it says Snow White met a witch in the forest so she must have existed." Imagine being told that Darth Vader existed just because a fantasy movie brought him to life?

How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?


Regards,


DeGuire
The Bible is not a single book, but rather a library. If you use one book in the bible to prove another, that is fine. It would be like saying "Darwin said this and is confirmed by Dawkins in his writting over here". But if you use the same book to prove itself that may be problematic on the logic of circular reasoning.

However scientist also hold to circular reasoning. How old is this rock layer? It is the age of the dinosaurs in it! and How old are these dinosaurs? The age of the rock layer they are found in.

Further, you look at the geological column in the text book and ask: where can we find this in nature...Nowhere. In fact in nature some of the layers separated by millions of years are laid on top of each other or inverted with the older layer over the younger. So, scientist are not free from circular reasoning. It is just bad reasoning no matter who does it.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:41 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,800 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Does not one prove science from science, economics from economic transactions, politics by elections? How is one to prove something from something else? Would one be happier to prove the bible from mel gibson's movie? Or how about being quoted in Moby Dick? Should we prove the truth of our legal books from babylonian sources?
I agree, the truth can prove the truth. So, in a sense the bible can prove itself, even within the same text.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,800 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Should you believe a criminal's story because he said it's true or should you investigate beyond taking his word for it? If you used his story to prove his story then no one would ever be convicted.

Is the bible true? Yes, God wrote it.
Did God write it? Yes, the bible said so.
Yes, the bible is the word of God and truth.

Since it is truth, then it would be lying if it didn't say it was the word of God, that it is!

Saying God wrote the bible does not mean that he did, but it does cause us to examine it more closely. When we do, the bible speaks the truth on the matters that can be tested, so we can be satisfied that it tells the truth on the things that cannot be tested.

The bible if considered like a witness then, we should accept its testimony and test it as any witness. Even if errors are found this would not cause us to throw out the testimony entirely. We still have to judge the testimony itself.

This has been done to the extreme with the bible and it appears to continually speak to the truth. We may disagree with what it says, but we have to acknowledge that it is the true, no matter how badly it paints the human race. Or how it paints the God that we see should be all loving all knowing. Yet, the bible is consistant with God who by nature is also a just God and who meets out judgement!
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