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Old 12-30-2008, 01:50 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,709,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deguire View Post
One of the rules of evangelization (I used to hear) was that in defense of the faith, a Christian was to use "scripture to defend scripture." It made all the sense in the world to me while I was in the fog but looking back, it makes not one lick of sense. I see it on CD quite often. A question is asked about the validity of a particular bible story or biblical passage and then the believer turns around and uses the same book that is being questioned to prove the truth of the story/passage.

Years ago I used to do the same thing and an atheist used to keep telling me, "you cannot use the bible to prove the bible." I never really paid attention to what he was saying because I was so committed to the idea that using scripture to prove scripture was the way to go. Now I realize that what he was essentially saying is that such a tactic amounts to nothing more than circular argument.

Imagine sitting with someone, obsessed with Snow White, and trying to tell them Snow White does not exist and they keep telling you, "Well you might not believe it, but according to page 15 in the story, it says Snow White met a witch in the forest so she must have existed." Imagine being told that Darth Vader existed just because a fantasy movie brought him to life?

How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?


Regards, DeGuire
Well, if we just go by your use of the word "Defense", then it is assumed that we are being attacked and are having to defend ourselves. Looking at all these combat threads which YOU and YOUR comrads have originated, how else do you expect people of faith to answer you ??? With pure intellectualism ??? I and others understand that is what you are looking for, but you won't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deguire
Just wait till a certain person sees this thread, you will get scripture quotes out the ying yang
Well we certainly don't want to disappoint you now do we ???

I'll be kind and simply quote a little. Actually it's a quote from an infamous and well known Atheist , Pontius Pilate. Not only did he not believe in any God of the nation of Israel, but he did'nt even believe in his empire's own pagan Roman religion and their gods either.

The scene is Jesus answering Pilate's question and telling him his purpose for being in the world was to bear witness to the truth. Here is Pontius Pilate's answer and responsive action to Jesus
Quote:
John 18:38
"What is truth ?"

Matthew 27:24
"When Pilate saw he was getting nowhere and that a riot was imminent, he took a basin of water and washed his hands in full sight of the crowd, saying, "I'm washing my hands of responsibilty of this man's death. From now on, it's in your hands. You're judge and jury"
Pilate was'nt interested in any kind or type of TRUTH. What he was interested in was furthering his career as a secular politician and looking out for the interests of Ceasar was foremost in accomplishing this. So as the ever so famous quote says, "He washed his hands of the whole affair."

Pilate had a golden opportunity to obtain the truth about many things and he let it slip away. Pontius Pilate was hardly the first person to ever question the idea of absolute truth. So let's go ahead and play the game the way you want it. No more scripture.

Pilate's skeptical view of TRUTH is certainly not an uncommon viewpoint in our secular society today. Many like you believe that Truth is relative, or in other words, that what is true to one person may be untrue to another, so that both may be "right". I do believe they have an intellectual sounding word for it, "Relativism".

Some revered ancient Greek Philosophers made the very teaching of such doubts their own life's work. In fact, five centuries before Pontius Pilate, ancient Greek philosopher,
Parmenides of Elea,
Parmenides - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(who BTW is considered the father of European MetaPysics) held that real knowledge is unattainable.

A pre-Socratic Greek materialist Philosopher, Democritus, also known as "The Laughing Philosopher",
Democritus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and hailed as "the greatest of ancient philosophers", asserted, "Truth is burried deep . . . we know nothing for certain."
And last but not least, perhaps the most revered secular philosopher of all, Socrates, said that all he really knew is that he knew nothing.

The philosophy of "Relativism" is certainly not limited to those philosophers. I personally see it inside of many of today's religions. In many of today's school systems it seems to engender their thinking as well. So much so that many of the school systems where I live in the European Union states, have laws making it a criminal offense for any parent to home school their children because any educational responsibility is ONLY deemed to be the right of the state and not the parent. The same thinking is promoted in other ways like where TV and Newspaper Reporters are often more interested in entertaining their viewers rather than getting to the TRUTH of any story.

Again, I have challenged you and other Atheists/Agnostics to open up a possitive thread and tell us your version of TRUTH. When a person observes the title of any thread any of which you open up for public debate, it is clear that there is no more motivation than to tear down and destroy what others believe, and that would be fine if their belief was/is indeed harmful to humankind, but in the wake of your intellectual weapons of mass destructive philosophical ideas, you offer nothing in return to building things back up. You have nothing beneficial to offer to fill that void or virtual "Black Hole" you've all created. So what EXACTLY is your TRUTH ???

Please, again I'll ask it. Open up a thread, just for this once, and tell us how secularism is going to benefit and save mankind from themselves.

How is the "United Nations" going to bring about "True Peace and Security" to our planet earth ???

How is the organization "UNICEF" going to end hunger, starvation, disease, lack of housing, etc to mankind ???

How is a secualr organization, like say, "Planned Parenthood" going to better help families raise children and instill decent moral values to the future benefit of humankind ???

We'll even allow you to quote from any secular/philosophical sources as to how your version of "TRUTH" is the answer. It must however show past/present & future proofs as to how this works. In so doing however, I must caution you, YOU will be asked to "DEFEND" your faith. Therein may lie the problem as to why there is, nor will there ever be any such future thread.

"WHAT IS TRUTH" ???
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Old 12-30-2008, 04:07 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,472,031 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deguire View Post
One of the rules of evangelization (I used to hear) was that in defense of the faith, a Christian was to use "scripture to defend scripture." It made all the sense in the world to me while I was in the fog but looking back, it makes not one lick of sense. I see it on CD quite often. A question is asked about the validity of a particular bible story or biblical passage and then the believer turns around and uses the same book that is being questioned to prove the truth of the story/passage.

Years ago I used to do the same thing and an atheist used to keep telling me, "you cannot use the bible to prove the bible." I never really paid attention to what he was saying because I was so committed to the idea that using scripture to prove scripture was the way to go. Now I realize that what he was essentially saying is that such a tactic amounts to nothing more than circular argument.

Imagine sitting with someone, obsessed with Snow White, and trying to tell them Snow White does not exist and they keep telling you, "Well you might not believe it, but according to page 15 in the story, it says Snow White met a witch in the forest so she must have existed." Imagine being told that Darth Vader existed just because a fantasy movie brought him to life?

How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?


Regards,


DeGuire
How can one prove the Bible by useing the Bible? Well lets see, what if the Bible stated something existed or happened a long time ago, yet there was no evidence for such a thing. As you say, some might point out that the event was mentioned somewhere else in the Bible. And yes, that would be a circular arguement. Yet, what if you found other historical evidence outside of the Bible that confirmed that event. Well then, you would have evidence that would support the truth and reality of the Bible. And that is the kind of evidence that is being found today. And that is the kind of discovery that makes sense to me. And yet, all to often that is the kind of hard evidence that is ignored by non believers. They are obsessed with the belief that the Bible is all wrong, and when you point out hard evidence to them, they go right into denial. And then pretend wisdom and science is on their side. LOL
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
712 posts, read 1,757,910 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Thread's not on prophecy folks....try and stick to the topic....

ARE YOU KIDDING ME...

This post is claiming that Christians only believe the Bible is true because it says so. In reality, the men who wrote the Bible claim they were inspired by God and people can see that through the detailed prophechies that have been fulfilled without error.

THEREFORE, prophecies have EVERYTHING to do with this topic.
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:58 AM
 
7,780 posts, read 12,997,528 times
Reputation: 3434
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouperStar34 View Post
ARE YOU KIDDING ME...

This post is claiming that Christians only believe the Bible is true because it says so. In reality, the men who wrote the Bible claim they were inspired by God and people can see that through the detailed prophechies that have been fulfilled without error.

THEREFORE, prophecies have EVERYTHING to do with this topic.
No, I'm not kidding you.

I allowed the posts on prophecy to remain and have no problem with you mentioning it or directing the readers to threads on specific prophecies....but a detailed debate on specific prophecies won't be allowed in this thread.

No kidding....
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,382,677 times
Reputation: 258
On another forum I have discussed the inerrancy Issue of the Bible. The Word is not fallible somewhat in God's revelation; that means that Inerrancy is in reference to greater wrod than even the Bible is. However, we are also fallible human beings; so the Bible repairs us or from this higher fertile ground makes mistakes. It is commonly refered to the mistake some people some times believe for the Gates to pass through. The fenced in area for the sheep is a place with a Shephard; isn't it? Now this is not an error these days.

May the wolves banish themselves to the other side as a I seek my shephard.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:25 AM
 
1,360 posts, read 1,864,582 times
Reputation: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
How can one prove the Bible by useing the Bible? Well lets see, what if the Bible stated something existed or happened a long time ago, yet there was no evidence for such a thing. As you say, some might point out that the event was mentioned somewhere else in the Bible. And yes, that would be a circular arguement. Yet, what if you found other historical evidence outside of the Bible that confirmed that event. Well then, you would have evidence that would support the truth and reality of the Bible. And that is the kind of evidence that is being found today. And that is the kind of discovery that makes sense to me. And yet, all to often that is the kind of hard evidence that is ignored by non believers. They are obsessed with the belief that the Bible is all wrong, and when you point out hard evidence to them, they go right into denial. And then pretend wisdom and science is on their side. LOL
Just because there are historical accuracies within the Bible doesn't mean there aren't exaggerations and fables mixed in. Lets take the Iliad for example, since I can't think of another work at this time. It is possible that a Trojan War occurred, but no one here is going to say it was ignited by angry gods.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:33 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,472,031 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
No, I'm not kidding you.

I allowed the posts on prophecy to remain and have no problem with you mentioning it or directing the readers to threads on specific prophecies....but a detailed debate on specific prophecies won't be allowed in this thread.

No kidding....
Superstar is right.

If you want to use the Bible to prove the Bible, you have to refer to the prophecies. And sometimes you have to debate a specific prophecy to determin it's truth. If that is not allowed, then I would say it is not really the truth your seeking here. It's kind of like saying, we are going to have a fair fight, but I want you to tie my opponents one arm behind his back to make the fight fair for me. LOL
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:37 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,472,031 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird82 View Post
Just because there are historical accuracies within the Bible doesn't mean there aren't exaggerations and fables mixed in. Lets take the Iliad for example, since I can't think of another work at this time. It is possible that a Trojan War occurred, but no one here is going to say it was ignited by angry gods.
Well the Bible has never been shown to be a Book of fables or lies. So why do you assume there are fabrications in it?
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:39 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,271,072 times
Reputation: 1320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Superstar is right.

If you want to use the Bible to prove the Bible, you have to refer to the prophecies. And sometimes you have to debate a specific prophecy to determin it's truth. If that is not allowed, then I would say it is not really the truth your seeking here. It's kind of like saying, we are going to have a fair fight, but I want you to tie my opponents one arm behind his back to make the fight fair for me. LOL
We don't accept your weak prophecy "fulfillments" but if you want to debate those, there are other threads for that.

Unless you want to talk about the OT prophecies that were fulfilled in the NT. Hm, someone read the OT, then fulfilled the prophecies when they wrote the NT! not hard. That's proving the bible with the bible.
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:16 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,472,031 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
We don't accept your weak prophecy "fulfillments" but if you want to debate those, there are other threads for that.

Unless you want to talk about the OT prophecies that were fulfilled in the NT. Hm, someone read the OT, then fulfilled the prophecies when they wrote the NT! not hard. That's proving the bible with the bible.
Well we could talk about the Old Testament Jerusalems East Gate prophecies fulfillment. You know, where the Old Testament states that the orginal East Gate would survive till the end of time, and then it states that a Porch Gate would be added to it. And a porch Gate was added by non believers in the Bible, and then the prophecy stated that the Porch Gate would be sealed up, and that happened to. And it was also sealed up by non believers in the Bible. And then the prophecy stated that the Gate would remain sealed till the end of time. And even when non believers in the Bible twice tried to open the Gate they failed to do so. Proving the Bible by the hand of non believers.

Can you explain to me how the men that wrote that prophecy 1,000 years before it's fulfillment knew all of that was going to happen?
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