U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:24 AM
 
Location: LAT: 40.77 LON: 73.98
604 posts, read 915,057 times
Reputation: 142

Advertisements

One of the rules of evangelization (I used to hear) was that in defense of the faith, a Christian was to use "scripture to defend scripture." It made all the sense in the world to me while I was in the fog but looking back, it makes not one lick of sense. I see it on CD quite often. A question is asked about the validity of a particular bible story or biblical passage and then the believer turns around and uses the same book that is being questioned to prove the truth of the story/passage.

Years ago I used to do the same thing and an atheist used to keep telling me, "you cannot use the bible to prove the bible." I never really paid attention to what he was saying because I was so committed to the idea that using scripture to prove scripture was the way to go. Now I realize that what he was essentially saying is that such a tactic amounts to nothing more than circular argument.

Imagine sitting with someone, obsessed with Snow White, and trying to tell them Snow White does not exist and they keep telling you, "Well you might not believe it, but according to page 15 in the story, it says Snow White met a witch in the forest so she must have existed." Imagine being told that Darth Vader existed just because a fantasy movie brought him to life?

How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?


Regards,


DeGuire

Last edited by Deguire; 12-29-2008 at 10:50 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:31 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,103,687 times
Reputation: 1319
Is the bible true? Yes, God wrote it.
Did God write it? Yes, the bible said so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:37 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,103,687 times
Reputation: 1319
I think just explaining it in different ways and in simple terms helps people understand it. If they understand the flaws but choose not to accept that it is a fallacious argument, then they have to consciously convince themselves of something illogical. It forces them to question things, but then they choose how they want to answer it. Many people can't abandon reason after all it's done in their lives, while many other people can't abandon religion after all it's done for them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:39 AM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
2,178 posts, read 5,874,475 times
Reputation: 958
I don't think you CAN deal with that circular arguement. It has to do with personal belief and an unwillingness to question that belief, so it is a threat to the Christian. I remember being taught the same thing when I was trying very hard to be a good Lutheran:"Use scripture to defend scripture and then God will be on your side and will make the unbeliever believe..." yada yada yada...makes me dizzy to think about it now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 8,954,642 times
Reputation: 1962
The Bible is the only truth that you need,the only source you need to back up scripture if there is a disagreement. It was foolish for you to keep listening to that person ,he beguiled you and pulled you away from the Lord. The love of the Lord comes from the heart,as you read and read the Bible more you have a in depth understanding of its meaning and know that it is the truth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,492,744 times
Reputation: 1913
Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
The Bible is the only truth that you need,the only source you need to back up scripture if there is a disagreement. It was foolish for you to keep listening to that person ,he beguiled you and pulled you away from the Lord. The love of the Lord comes from the heart,as you read and read the Bible more you have a in depth understanding of its meaning and know that it is the truth.
Right! Don't you dare ever try to think for yourself now. It's just not healthy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:49 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,438,346 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
How do you deal with the circular argument presented by believers completely ignoring the idea of empirical evidence?
i think if the person actually wants to listen to your opinion, they'll understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: LAT: 40.77 LON: 73.98
604 posts, read 915,057 times
Reputation: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
I think just explaining it in different ways and in simple terms helps people understand it. If they understand the flaws but choose not to accept that it is a fallacious argument, then they have to consciously convince themselves of something illogical. It forces them to question things, but then they choose how they want to answer it. Many people can't abandon reason after all it's done in their lives, while many other people can't abandon religion after all it's done for them.

It's what still baffles me about the human mind. We apply reason to everything else but for some, abandon it when it comes to the Bible. There is no way we would believe anyone else's story about talking donkeys or them claiming to hear constant voices of the lord speaking to them, but 2,300 - 1,300 years removed from similar claims, we swallow the stories hook, line and sinker.

Muhammad claims an angel spoke to him and billions believe it while billions in an opposing faith that also believe in hearing voices discard it as nonsense. Go figure.


Regards,

DeGuire
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 11:13 AM
 
Location: England
1,169 posts, read 2,064,230 times
Reputation: 986
You need to look at the Bible first of all. Its not a fairy story like snow white. The Old Testament is made up of The Laws and then the Old Testament prophets, psalms and proverbs. No one has been able to discount the Bible, which has proven to be accurate in terms of time lines and its desriptions of people and places - also confirmed by archaeologists and historians. The Bible cannot be disproven at all - and yet, it should be quite easy to disprove if the names and places etc were wrong.

The New Testament was written into English by William Tynsdale who was accurate in every detail - the catholic church tried to stop the translation into English - but it was done and the Bible became available to all.

So, look at the Roots of the Bible first. It is a reliable book, full of facts that have been confirmed as true.

Also, there are prophesies in the Old Testament - that were fulfilled in the New! The Bible fits together perfectly.

No other book - of any other religion - can be found to be so accurate and cannot be disproven - like the Bible. Other religions have tried to imitate it, Jospeh Smith tried to add to it, but the Bible stands as a MAP a book for mankind - to read and become alive as they read. God speaks through his Bible now, many chrsitians will tell you that. One Girl I know, had no christian background, she became a chrsitian, got saved just by reading the Bible.

But, if someone were to ask me how to explain certain passages were true.....well, I would say "I am the words of the Gospel, the message of the Psalms - The Lord is my Shepherd, The Lord is my redeemer" and that is all I could say. Until God opens a persons spiritual eyes, they will never see. But God does use the Bible to open eyes - and that is all the proof you need that the Bible is what I truly believe it is - The Word of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2008, 11:25 AM
 
Location: LAT: 40.77 LON: 73.98
604 posts, read 915,057 times
Reputation: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
You need to look at the Bible first of all. Its not a fairy story like snow white. The Old Testament is made up of The Laws and then the Old Testament prophets, psalms and proverbs. No one has been able to discount the Bible, which has proven to be accurate in terms of time lines and its desriptions of people and places - also confirmed by archaeologists and historians. The Bible cannot be disproven at all - and yet, it should be quite easy to disprove if the names and places etc were wrong.

The New Testament was written into English by William Tynsdale who was accurate in every detail - the catholic church tried to stop the translation into English - but it was done and the Bible became available to all.

So, look at the Roots of the Bible first. It is a reliable book, full of facts that have been confirmed as true.

Also, there are prophesies in the Old Testament - that were fulfilled in the New! The Bible fits together perfectly.

No other book - of any other religion - can be found to be so accurate and cannot be disproven - like the Bible. Other religions have tried to imitate it, Jospeh Smith tried to add to it, but the Bible stands as a MAP a book for mankind - to read and become alive as they read. God speaks through his Bible now, many chrsitians will tell you that. One Girl I know, had no christian background, she became a chrsitian, got saved just by reading the Bible.

But, if someone were to ask me how to explain certain passages were true.....well, I would say "I am the words of the Gospel, the message of the Psalms - The Lord is my Shepherd, The Lord is my redeemer" and that is all I could say. Until God opens a persons spiritual eyes, they will never see. But God does use the Bible to open eyes - and that is all the proof you need that the Bible is what I truly believe it is - The Word of God.
Jenna, I'm not even going to get into the amount of things that can be brought up to discount the bible, however, I will admit that while Snow White is complete fantasy the Bible does contain facts. On that note, they say the worst types of falsehoods are those peppered with lots of truth or just enough to offset the false or fabricated.

Anyway, this is not about whether the Bible has been discounted or not. We still can't discount much of the world's superstitions thousands of years later so the Bible is not unique. What I was pointing out in this thread is the idea of circular argument which Logic is Your Friend so eloquently exampled up top. Any thoughts on that?


Regards,


DeGuire
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top