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Christians do not just look to the New Testament for their understanding, much of the end time prophecies are found in the Old Testament. Israels future is spoken of in detail in the Book of Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38,and 39. These prophecies clearly state that God would allow the Jewish people to return to the land of Israel in the latter days. And He would do this to anger the nations, which is part of His plan to reveal to the Jews and the world who He is. I can assure you, these events are fully God ordained.
Campbell34,
It says right here the complete opposite of what you are saying:
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
here:
John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
and here:
Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Pious Jews were already gathered. Why is this not a fulfillment completely consistent with Ezekiel 36 and Deuteronomy 30? That actually was in the latter days.
Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7
...
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Hebrews 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
In the OT the latter days also had to happen when Gentiles seek God.
Micah 4
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it. 2 Many nations shall come and say,
“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
Amos 9
11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[c] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[d] And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
Acts 15
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ Afterthis I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says theLORD who does all these things.’[b]
You don't have a single scripture in the NT that even hints there will be another gathering. I can provide even more than this. You say the end times is now where all over the NT its says it was 2000 years ago. It also says during the end times Gentiles would seek God which they have. It also happens to be when Daniel said it would be.
It says right here the complete opposite of what you are saying:
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
here:
John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
and here:
Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Pious Jews were already gathered. Why is this not a fulfillment completely consistent with Ezekiel 36 and Deuteronomy 30? That actually was in the latter days.
Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7
...
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Hebrews 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
In the OT the latter days also had to happen when Gentiles seek God.
Micah 4
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it. 2 Many nations shall come and say,
“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
Amos 9
11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[c] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[d] And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,” Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
Acts 15
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ Afterthis I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says theLORD who does all these things.’[b]
You don't have a single scripture in the NT that even hints there will be another gathering. I can provide even more than this. You say the end times is now where all over the NT its says it was 2000 years ago. It also says during the end times Gentiles would seek God which they have. It also happens to be when Daniel said it would be.
Hebrews 12 is speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem. We are not there yet. There are a series of events that must first take place before God appears here on earth. And one of those events are the return of the Jewish people to Israel, and earthly Jerusalem. It clearly states that this will happen in the latter years. If you recall the Bible tells us that the Anti Christ to come would take away the daily sacrifice. He is not going to take away the daily sacrifice from a heavenly temple in Jerusalem, he will take it away from an earthly temple in Jerusalem, and that temple does not exist yet. There is a movement now in Israel to rebuilt such a temple, and priest are now being trained for animal sacrifice once again. Jesus spoke of a future time when the daily sacrifice would be taken away. He called it the abomonation of desolation. This prophecy was not fulfilled in the past, and could only be fulfilled in the future. Ezekiel 36 through 38 was never fulfilled in the past. Just read the prophecy. Have the mountains around the earth been thrown down? When was the armies of Gog destroyed? When did the people of earth all shake in the presence of the holy God of Israel? When did it take 7 months for Israel to bury Gogs army? And where was Gogs army buried? When did these things happen in the past? God did not allow the Jewish people to return to Israel because they know God, He has allowed them to return because they don't know Him. And for that matter, neither does most of the world. Yet God is going to reveal who He is when the nations rise up and try to force the Jews out of their land. It will be at that time, that both the Jews and the world will see the power of God. Nothing like this has happened since the time of the Pharoah, and the Red Sea crossing. These great events will happen in the future.
Hebrews 12 is speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem. We are not there yet. There are a series of events that must first take place before God appears here on earth. And one of those events are the return of the Jewish people to Israel, and earthly Jerusalem. It clearly states that this will happen in the latter years. If you recall the Bible tells us that the Anti Christ to come would take away the daily sacrifice. He is not going to take away the daily sacrifice from a heavenly temple in Jerusalem, he will take it away from an earthly temple in Jerusalem, and that temple does not exist yet. There is a movement now in Israel to rebuilt such a temple, and priest are now being trained for animal sacrifice once again. Jesus spoke of a future time when the daily sacrifice would be taken away. He called it the abomonation of desolation. This prophecy was not fulfilled in the past, and could only be fulfilled in the future. Ezekiel 36 through 38 was never fulfilled in the past. Just read the prophecy. Have the mountains around the earth been thrown down? When was the armies of Gog destroyed? When did the people of earth all shake in the presence of the holy God of Israel? When did it take 7 months for Israel to bury Gogs army? And where was Gogs army buried? When did these things happen in the past? God did not allow the Jewish people to return to Israel because they know God, He has allowed them to return because they don't know Him. And for that matter, neither does most of the world. Yet God is going to reveal who He is when the nations rise up and try to force the Jews out of their land. It will be at that time, that both the Jews and the world will see the power of God. Nothing like this has happened since the time of the Pharoah, and the Red Sea crossing. These great events will happen in the future.
And here we go again to yet another temple reconstruction off topic in 3...2...1... Oh dear, you already have.
Geez Campbell just what part of this do you not understand?
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
And here we go again to yet another temple reconstruction off topic in 3...2...1... Oh dear, you already have.
Geez Campbell just what part of this do you not understand?
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
The prophecy is speaking about a physical temple in Jerusalem that is being used by non believing Jews. Thats why they are into animal sacrifice. What part of that did you miss? And the prophecy states that the Anti Christ to come will take away that daily sacrifice, and he will set up his image in that temple for all the world to worship. This has nothing to do with God's temple.
Um...were all the nations of the world gathered at a table when this was announced? Were they consulted? Did they all agree on this? Did they all hear God telling the Jewish people this? Last time I checked, a book written by guess who - the Jews - stated that a god spoke to their great ancestor and told supposedly told him that a prime plot of land would be his and thus self fulfilling prophecy followed. Never mind THEN that people were already living there ad minding their own business or NOW (1948) that people were living there and minding their own business.
Don't know about you, but sounds rather fishy to me. [sarcasm]In fact, I'm going to write a book and claim that a god promised my Portuguese ancestors all of Brazil so we're going to go down there and take it back from those savages. You guys better believe it too because my book will also proclaim it is the word of god. I'll toss in a few prophecies to prove its worth. Here's one in advance. Jesus won't come back by next week Friday.[/sarcasm]
Regards,
DeGuire
No, all the nations of the world were not seated at a table when that was announced. Yet God gave us His Word, the Bible. And in the Bible it states that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. The Bible was written by the Jews, but it was authored by God. And if the Bible had no evidence to back up it claims, it would sound a little fishy to me as well. However, this is not the case. The prophecies of the Bible are being fulfilled, and some of them are being fulfilled by non believers in the Bible. So we can't just blame the Jews for their fufillment. If you can write a book that has fulfilled prophecies that cannot be denied, I might be intrested in reading it. However, if we have to wait thousands of years like we did with the Bible, theres a good chance I might not be around to see them fulfilled. Yet it does appear some of us will see all of the prophecies of the Bible fulfilled.
No, all the nations of the world were not seated at a table when that was announced. Yet God gave us His Word, the Bible. And in the Bible it states that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. The Bible was written by the Jews, but it was authored by God. And if the Bible had no evidence to back up it claims, it would sound a little fishy to me as well. However, this is not the case. The prophecies of the Bible are being fulfilled, and some of them are being fulfilled by non believers in the Bible. So we can't just blame the Jews for their fufillment. If you can write a book that has fulfilled prophecies that cannot be denied, I might be intrested in reading it. However, if we have to wait thousands of years like we did with the Bible, theres a good chance I might not be around to see them fulfilled. Yet it does appear some of us will see all of the prophecies of the Bible fulfilled.
Campbell my friend, I'm dizzy from all the circular arguments in your response. Let me undizzy myself and get back to you.
Hebrews 12 is speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem. We are not there yet. There are a series of events that must first take place before God appears here on earth. And one of those events are the return of the Jewish people to Israel, and earthly Jerusalem. It clearly states that this will happen in the latter years.
Hi Campbell34,
Please show me the actual scripture. I dispute it exists. I have provided my references. Where are yours?
Quote:
If you recall the Bible tells us that the Anti Christ to come would take away the daily sacrifice. He is not going to take away the daily sacrifice from a heavenly temple in Jerusalem, he will take it away from an earthly temple in Jerusalem, and that temple does not exist yet.
Which scripture? This happened once with Antiochus Epiphanes and again in 70 AD. Israel committed the abomination herself during the war with Rome with Zealots and Ideumeans.
That is why Daniel 9 used "am" and not nations or goyim.
from '`amam' (6004); a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively, a flock:--folk, men, nation, people.
Josephus, book 4, Wars of the Jews
10. And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and every one was in indignation at these men's seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders, but had not yet begun their attacks upon them, (the reason of which was this, that they imagined it to be a difficult thing to suppress these zealots, as indeed the case was,) Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains; yet do I, who am clothed with the vestments of the high priesthood, and am called by that most venerable name [of high priest], still live, and am but too fond of living, and cannot endure to undergo a death which would be the glory of my old age; and if I were the only person concerned, and as it were in a desert, I would give up my life, and that alone for God's sake;
How is the AC going to "take away the sacrifice" yet sit in the temple and call himself God and then destroy the temple in which he declared himself God? What sense does that make? Does one call himself Lord of the rubble?
The "man of sin" is long gone. When Paul wrote 2 Thessolonians 2 the temple in 50 AD was still standing. Jesus did destroy him "in the clouds" which has a very specific meaning of judgment. The "man of sin" would obviously be a Jew otherwise other Jews would know he is not God. The man of sin would be the ultimate abomination where God would typically send an army to burn the temple. That is exactly the forumla in Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 8
9 And He said to me, “Go in, and see the wicked abominations which they are doing there.” 10 So I went in and saw, and there—every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed all around on the walls. 11 And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in their midst stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan. Each man had a censer in his hand, and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12 Then He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the room of his idols? For they say, ‘The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.’
Quote:
There is a movement now in Israel to rebuilt such a temple, and priest are now being trained for animal sacrifice once again.
I can't wait to see all of Israel try that. They don't even come close to agreement. All actually conforming to the Law? Where will they get the priests from Aaron? What about Zadok to consecrate it? Who now is the house of Zadok?
Quote:
Jesus spoke of a future time when the daily sacrifice would be taken away.
He called it the abomonation of desolation. This prophecy was not fulfilled in the past, and could only be fulfilled in the future.
I just proved the abomination had happened in 70 AD.
Quote:
Ezekiel 36 through 38 was never fulfilled in the past. Just read the prophecy. Have the mountains around the earth been thrown down? When was the armies of Gog destroyed? When did the people of earth all shake in the presence of the holy God of Israel?
I see the mountains of the earth are literal but horses swords and bucklers are symbolic. This was clearly an ancient battle. It could have been in 66 AD when the 12th legion was annihilated (LEGIO XII FULMINATA) or pehaps the Maccabean revolt. Israel won victories 3 times in the Beth Horon pass starting with Joshua.
Joshua 10
11 And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the LORD cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword.
Quote:
When did it take 7 months for Israel to bury Gogs army? And where was Gogs army buried? When did these things happen in the past?
There are lots of possibilties.
Quote:
God did not allow the Jewish people to return to Israel because they know God, He has allowed them to return because they don't know Him.
Really? Where is that specified in the Law? Where does it say in Ezekiel that God will just gather them while apostate? I can tell you absolutely it is NOWHERE in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 30
1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.
Quote:
And for that matter, neither does most of the world. Yet God is going to reveal who He is when the nations rise up and try to force the Jews out of their land. It will be at that time, that both the Jews and the world will see the power of God. Nothing like this has happened since the time of the Pharoah, and the Red Sea crossing. These great events will happen in the future.
God Already revealed who he is according to Paul. Christianity is already all over the world and no one knows who he is?
Act 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
This is just my opinion, however I find that the biggest sin is of those who use their sacred books, whether it be their Bible or the Qur'an, to justify the killing of innocent people, those caught in the middle, the ordinary people who go about their lives trying to make a living the best way they can. There are extremes on both sides and the ones that suffer the most are the ones caught in the middle and you extremists care little or nothing about them, all you want to do is justify your sick minded ideas about revelations or the rapture or the end of times with the killing of innocents. Remember their blood is on your hands, not your God, but your hands, you interpret your holy books to suit your own agenda, when the time comes that you have to face your Creator and when he asks you, "what have you done for the betterment of your people", how are you going to be able to face him and say that I am responsible for the death of innocent men women and children.
This is just my opinion, however I find that the biggest sin is of those who use their sacred books, whether it be their Bible or the Qur'an, to justify the killing of innocent people, those caught in the middle, the ordinary people who go about their lives trying to make a living the best way they can. There are extremes on both sides and the ones that suffer the most are the ones caught in the middle and you extremists care little or nothing about them, all you want to do is justify your sick minded ideas about revelations or the rapture or the end of times with the killing of innocents. Remember their blood is on your hands, not your God, but your hands, you interpret your holy books to suit your own agenda, when the time comes that you have to face your Creator and when he asks you, "what have you done for the betterment of your people", how are you going to be able to face him and say that I am responsible for the death of innocent men women and children.
Yes sir,
That just about sums it up.
One of the biggest points of the religious harlot, "Babylon the Great", mentioned in Revelation is that she is extremely 'bloodguilty'
This is just my opinion, however I find that the biggest sin is of those who use their sacred books, whether it be their Bible or the Qur'an, to justify the killing of innocent people, those caught in the middle, the ordinary people who go about their lives trying to make a living the best way they can. There are extremes on both sides and the ones that suffer the most are the ones caught in the middle and you extremists care little or nothing about them, all you want to do is justify your sick minded ideas about revelations or the rapture or the end of times with the killing of innocents. Remember their blood is on your hands, not your God, but your hands, you interpret your holy books to suit your own agenda, when the time comes that you have to face your Creator and when he asks you, "what have you done for the betterment of your people", how are you going to be able to face him and say that I am responsible for the death of innocent men women and children.
1) Evil (ie murder) is the absent of the God. God hates murder.
2) God allows choice... Most people choose evil.
3) The Bible states there is time for WAR and there is a time for PEACE. God is a just god and He does use war for punishment.
4) Don't shoot the messenger...
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