Theology trumps morality: my disagreement with "Born Againers" (prophecies, atheist)

[mzjamiedawn]

Originally Posted by Richio

Well, I'll leave you with your opinions.
Everyone has the right to make their own choice.

At least now, you've had the opportunity.

Amen Richio.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by jasper1372

Wow...you're preaching to the choir here buddy. I grew up in a very loving home, with parents who took me to a church with exactly the belief you stated....that works did not get you to heaven...only accepting Jesus Christ as your savior did.

Just like you, to me it made absolutely no sense. For god to send all those wonderful folks of other religions, or no religion for that matter, to hell and eternal punishment to me sounded like something only a very sick and depraved god would do.

Due to the fact that this belief made absolutely no sense to me and in fact as I stated, sounded sick and derpaved to me....I just tuned any thoughts of religion and spirtuality out of my life for many years.

Fast forward to a few years ago after my father died. I stumbled onto a website that had hundreds of near-death experiences on it. I read them with fascination since EVERYONE of them talked about the UNCONDITIONAL love and acceptance they felt upon dying. There as no talk of a judgement throne, vengful god....even for those who were not believers before their "death". All any of them talked about was that the ONLY thing that mattered was how you treated people here on earth. Love is what we need to show everyone we possibly can. We need to be good neighbors, good parents, good kids, good employees etc... If we impact others positively....we've done well as far as god is concerned.

All the rest of those religious beliefs are RUBISH ! Hey, if you do all the above and also enjoy religious practices....thats fine. But the fact is they have absolutely NO bearing on where you'll spend eternity.

Agreed. As Christ himself said, second only to "loving GOD with all your heart" is "loving your neighbor as youself". Those are the most important commandments (Matthew 22:37-40)

But keep in mind, we are talking about people who go out of their way to not actually read the words of Christ.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by Richio

Well, I'll leave you with your opinions.
Everyone has the right to make their own choice.

At least now, you've had the opportunity.

Not an opinion, but a learned conclusion after I did the one thing BACs don't want people to do (actually read the bible and try to make sense of it) and did something the fundies through the ages have murdered and massacred for me not to do (read the banned books that a hand full of slave owning Roman gentry did not want me to read)

Thanks to the work of deligent servants of GOD through the ages, I have the oppurtunity to know Christ, and live his word, and gain that learned understanding of the divine in him, through him, and with him (Gnosis) by living his word and seeking GOD in this life and the next through his teachings.

For that oppurtunity, I am eternally grateful to those who came before me and those who faught for my Freedom of Religion. No more burning at the stake...no more crusades...no more massacres...in America, we have the right to pursue GOD in peace, despite the best efforts of the decendents of Inquisitors.

An age in which anyone can come to the Father in Heaven through his son Christ our LIBERATOR is finally here, so that now, truly, as Christ said in Thomas 8:4 "Who ever has ears to hear, should hear"

[AaronK]

Catholics believe works are a part of going to heaven. People who think that just believing in Christ and accepting him into your heart is good enough have watered down our faith so badly.

I'm sorry, but you can believe in Jesus all you want. If you live like a scrooge and you're a racist monger and you do things that are un-Christian, why should you be more able to go to heaven than say someone like Gandhi?

[Ever Adrift]

I have to say I am in complete agreeance with Victorianpunk; those Christians who believe that there is this god who will banish anyone who does not worship him to eternal pain and suffering no matter how good they are otherwise and who will allow anyone to enjoy eternal joy and euphoria if they do worship him, no matter how horrible they were, is an immoral god who does not deserve respect, let alone the worship he demands. To banish someone to eternal pain and suffering for a particular and finite crime seems to be the very definition of injustice and a very clear case of immorality. What's worse is the fact that apparently the only real crime is not worshipping god; somehow, in some twisted way, fundamentalist Christians actually believe that a person's lack of belief in a 2000 year old book of illogical supernatural stories is a crime worthy of greater punishment than the holocaust. This doesn't sound like a viable ethical system to me.

What bothers me is the fact that this particular subset of Christians believe that 'spreading the word' is more important and more moral than combatting global poverty, malnutrition, child abuse, torture, genocide and the like. They actually believe that children in Africa who are dying from lack of food and medicine, from disease, should rot in hell because they don't happen to worship Jesus (even when some of these children have never even heard of Jesus or the Bible). What's worse, they think that this is morally justified! I will never understand; I don't think that I want to.

So, this wretched heathen atheist will concern himself with doing what he can to improve the livelihoods of the literally billions of people living in absolute poverty in this world and he will burn in hell for it, apparently. yay.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by AaronK

Catholics believe works are a part of going to heaven. People who think that just believing in Christ and accepting him into your heart is good enough have watered down our faith so badly.

I'm sorry, but you can believe in Jesus all you want. If you live like a scrooge and you're a racist monger and you do things that are un-Christian, why should you be more able to go to heaven than say someone like Gandhi?

I couldn't agree more.

[gwynedd1]

The point I got out of the New Testament is we cannot attain the level of righteousness to save ourselves. It simply does not matter how "good" we are if we feel our own righteousness. It is the height of arrogance to think on your own you could stand before God. Can you assume the level of righteousness necessary for such a thing? May I just walk into an operating room unmasked and unwashed? Your existence was impossible without God. You own "goodness" was given to you. The apple you gave away was grown by the earth and sun which you did not have a hand in making.
We know less than nothing. How do we know what we are or what we cost? How do we know God did not wound himself to make us? We know he wounded himself to restore us. It is actually an old Jewish belief God had to withdraw from the universe to create it so that something not of himself could exist. Is Christ also symbolic of the wound of creation? How do we know what need there is? I assume one who assumes the needs of God is already unbearably evil.
It is not for those who had never heard of Jesus. However if one is ostensibly "good" and one hears of Jesus and his deeds and then says what need to I have of this? I differ from you. I need this. I cannot meet the ruler of the universe from my own wardrobe of rags.

[Huckleberry3911948]

i agree lots of hypocrisy in the church. however although i dont find any hyprocrisy on a bar stool, i still feel it is a sleazy ugly dirt bag place to be. looking at the jerk across the room is kinda fun, looking at the one in the mirror is unbearable.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

It is not for those who had never heard of Jesus. However if one is ostensibly "good" and one hears of Jesus and his deeds and then says what need to I have of this?

I am not talking about people without religion, I am talking about people of a different religion. Gandhi never converted to Christianity despite liking Christ's teachings and living a more Christ like life than 90% of the fundies on Earth. He remained a Hindu to his dying day...now, is the fact that he never converted enough to condemn him to an eternity of torment?

If so...than what the hell kind of god is that? Is he worth following?

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

I am not talking about people without religion, I am talking about people of a different religion. Gandhi never converted to Christianity despite liking Christ's teachings and living a more Christ like life than 90% of the fundies on Earth. He remained a Hindu to his dying day...now, is the fact that he never converted enough to condemn him to an eternity of torment?

If so...than what the hell kind of god is that? Is he worth following?

In order to enter heaven, it requires a person to be perfect. Now let me ask you a question, have you lived a perfect life? When you stand before God will you say to Him, "God, I deserve to go to heaven, because I have lived a perfect life". And if you can't say that, why should God allow you into His perfect heaven?