if you believe that Jesus is God (pray, Christian, believer)

[beeveenh]

Originally Posted by Ringwielder

Ah, and of course it is unthinkable that there would be a MASSIVE CONTRADICTION!

The Bible only has to say it once. Okay, Show me one Scripture which says that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one?

And the Bible does repeat itself over and over to reinforce a point.. How many times does it say Jesus is the SON of God? Why would God choose to use that analogy to describe his relationship with Jesus, to humans?

I AM NOT my son. My son is a distinct, separate, being from me. He may possess many of my characteristics both looks and personality wise. He may be called a 'chip off the old block' or the 'spitting image' of me, but he is not me. He stands alone as his own person. So for God to say to humans that Jesus is his SON is confusing and also incorrect if Jesus is God himself.

I notice they have had to make up a definition all of its own in the dictionary to cover the Trinity, because it does not fit in with any of the usual definitions of the word 'son'.

EXACTLY!! I so agree with ya!

God is not a God of confusion or disorder. To use a relationship that we know and understand so well as humans, to describe His relationship with Jesus would be misleading. Why not use the term 'brothers'...'twins' at that?

I think it is interesting to note that during this time (after the 1st century), when so much of the surrounding pagan societies were merging with "Christianity", those pagan societies worshipped Gods that were triune in nature.

[moonsun]

take the truth from quran

88 And they say: "The Most Gracious (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son [‘Îsâ (Jesus) عليه السلام], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels and others.)]."

89 Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

90 Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

91 That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Gracious (Allâh).

92 But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Gracious (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).

93 There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Gracious (Allâh) as a slave.

94 Verily He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.

95 And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

I study the Bible where I find doctrine.

Perhaps the 'problem' lies in your 'understanding' of the Bible. It may well be clouded by the doctrines of man which have been developed by man for 1500 years.

I don't go to church because of my job, so I just look to the Bible itself and God's leading for my doctrine.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Ringwielder

Ah, and of course it is unthinkable that there would be a MASSIVE CONTRADICTION!

The Bible only has to say it once. Okay, Show me one Scripture which says that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one?

And the Bible does repeat itself over and over to reinforce a point.. How many times does it say Jesus is the SON of God? Why would God choose to use that analogy to describe his relationship with Jesus, to humans?

I AM NOT my son. My son is a distinct, separate, being from me. He may possess many of my characteristics both looks and personality wise. He may be called a 'chip off the old block' or the 'spitting image' of me, but he is not me. He stands alone as his own person. So for God to say to humans that Jesus is his SON is confusing and also incorrect if Jesus is God himself.

I notice they have had to make up a definition all of its own in the dictionary to cover the Trinity, because it does not fit in with any of the usual definitions of the word 'son'.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (JESUS) and the Holy Ghost: (AND THESE THREE ARE ONE).

[Ringwielder]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (JESUS) and the Holy Ghost: (AND THESE THREE ARE ONE).

I would have thought that you would have known that this verse is almost universally condemned as spurious. It was inserted into the Scriptures around 400 AD and no recent versions of the Bible recognize that verse. This shows how desperate Trinitarians were to find something to further their own beliefs, that they had to fabricate Scripture to do so..... which is what I believe most religions do anyway.

The New American Standard Version states, (as well as many others)

7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

(http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.2.5.html - broken link)What Did Jesus Really Say ? - 1 John 5:7 (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.2.5.html - broken link)

I repeat my challenge, where is the Trinity in its fullest sense found in the Scriptures?

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by Ringwielder

I would have thought that you would have known that this verse is almost universally condemned as spurious. It was inserted into the Scriptures around 400 AD and no recent versions of the Bible recognize that verse. This shows how desperate Trinitarians were to find something to further their own beliefs, that they had to fabricate Scripture to do so..... which is what I believe most religions do anyway.

The New American Standard Version states, (as well as many others)

7For there are three that testify:
8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

(http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.2.5.html - broken link)What Did Jesus Really Say ? - 1 John 5:7 (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.2.5.html - broken link)

I repeat my challenge, where is the Trinity in its fullest sense found in the Scriptures?

The Trinity is taught all through out the Bible. If don't like the one Campbell gave, here are more, which I am not going type out, look them up.
Luke 3:21-22
Genesis 1:26
Matthew 28:19
John 15:26
Ephesians 2:18
1 Peter 1:2

[Ringwielder]

Why did the King James writers have to change a verse if there was undeniable proof of the Trinity elsewhere in Scripture? It is precisely because there was not a clear cut specific statement of the Trinity elsewhere.

None of those verses say anything like the Athanasian creed. Nowhere in Scripture does it categorically state that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, three in one Godhead. Nowhere does it say God the father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.

As an afterthought, why is it so important to believe that Jesus is Almighty God? And that the Holy Spirit is God?

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by Ringwielder

Why did the King James writers have to change a verse if there was undeniable proof of the Trinity elsewhere in Scripture? It is precisely because there was not a clear cut specific statement of the Trinity elsewhere.

None of those verses say anything like the Athanasian creed. Nowhere in Scripture does it categorically state that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, three in one Godhead. Nowhere does it say God the father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.

As an afterthought, why is it so important to believe that Jesus is Almighty God? And that the Holy Spirit is God?

What was changed, KJV 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record
in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three agree in one".
All of the verses I listed above prove the Trinity is real, it's taught all through the Bible. I don't know what the Athanasian creed is, but I know what the Bible is, it's God's Word and I trust it and believe what it says. And it's important to believe Jesus is God because it proves just how much He loves us, He came to us in human form, He didn't send an angel, He came Himself.

[Carico]

Originally Posted by moonsun

here are verses from the Bible means he is not God


YouTube - Huge surprise for sincere Christians: The Bible clearly says that Jesus is not God

Wrong. John 1:1-2 says he is because God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one. That means that one will not disagree with the other.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by moonsun

here are verses from the Bible means he is not God


YouTube - Huge surprise for sincere Christians: The Bible clearly says that Jesus is not God

I don't know what bible you are reading but the bible does say that He is God.

But muslims just want to cling to Son of God and He is, as well as the Light, Everlasting Father, The Good Shepherd, The Light, The Beginning and The End, Alpha and Omega, and so many other names. But Jesus is God.