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Old 07-08-2009, 03:22 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
15,556 posts, read 7,796,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
You do understand, that the Biblical prophecy of the messiah requires that His own people would reject him.
I see your habit of shifting your ground again. Your point was not that prophecy said that the Jews would reject Jesus as messiah, but they would dislike him because he rode into Jerusalem on an Ass. It is THAT claim you are being called on to support.
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:01 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,540,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I see your habit of shifting your ground again. Your point was not that prophecy said that the Jews would reject Jesus as messiah, but they would dislike him because he rode into Jerusalem on an Ass. It is THAT claim you are being called on to support.
My claim has such an obvious answer, I can't believe your still talking about it. The Jews of that time were looking for a powerful king to get rid of the Romans. The prophecy describes the messiah to come as a powerful king. Yet the prophecy also describes the messiah as a gentle man, who enters Jerusalem riding on a donkey. So given the two choices, the Jews of that time wanted the powerful king and rejected the gentle man riding on a donkey. It was not so much his choice of transportation they rejected, it was the fact that He did not appear as the powerful king they were looking for.

Zec. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation,(Gentle and riding on a donkey), on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Zec. 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Before you are two prophecies of the messiah. the prophecy in verse 9 was fulfilled 2,000 years ago, the prophecy in verse 10 will be fulfilled in the future. However the Jews of that time like the prophecy found in verse 10 and wanted it fulfilled in their time. When it appeared obvious to them that Jesus was not going to be the King that would rule from sea to sea they did away with Him. And according to the Old Testament, that would be the fate of the messiah when He first came to His own people. For the prophecies tell us, His own people would reject Him.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:53 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
15,556 posts, read 7,796,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
My claim has such an obvious answer, I can't believe your still talking about it. The Jews of that time were looking for a powerful king to get rid of the Romans. The prophecy describes the messiah to come as a powerful king. Yet the prophecy also describes the messiah as a gentle man, who enters Jerusalem riding on a donkey. So given the two choices, the Jews of that time wanted the powerful king and rejected the gentle man riding on a donkey. It was not so much his choice of transportation they rejected, it was the fact that He did not appear as the powerful king they were looking for.

Zec. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation,(Gentle and riding on a donkey), on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Zec. 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Before you are two prophecies of the messiah. the prophecy in verse 9 was fulfilled 2,000 years ago, the prophecy in verse 10 will be fulfilled in the future. However the Jews of that time like the prophecy found in verse 10 and wanted it fulfilled in their time. When it appeared obvious to them that Jesus was not going to be the King that would rule from sea to sea they did away with Him. And according to the Old Testament, that would be the fate of the messiah when He first came to His own people. For the prophecies tell us, His own people would reject Him.
You are the one that believes in the Bible, not me. The bible says that Jesus rode into jerusalem (actually just up to the temple entrance, that would be) on an ass. The people went wild, matthew tells us. But you tried to argue that reason the Jews rejected jesus was because he rode on an ass.

You wrote
"The Jewish people rejected Jesus, because they failed to consider the order of the prophecy. The prophecy stated that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. They did not like that part of the prophecy, so they ignored it. They like the prophecy that speaks of the Messiah as a conquering King. So who cares about Biblical details. Especially when one's personal desires are of greater importance?"

Bible quotes are irrelevant here. They only confirm that Jesus rode on an ass for a particular reason - to present himself as a messiah.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,060 posts, read 19,752,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Zec. 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation,(Gentle and riding on a donkey), on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
OK, now we're getting somewhere! Since you have elected to quote Zechariah, I should point out to you that he wasn't referring to a messiah. He was referring to the return of the king. As in, King of Israel. Check out the very first verse of that book: "In the second year of Darius the king..."

Zechariah was writing from exile in Persia. The expectations of the exiled population involved a return to Israel (actually, Judea) and for their king to be reinstalled in Jerusalem. There's not a syllable anywhere in the book to suggest that Zechariah was making any sort of claim for a messiah.

But don't worry, you were only facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction with your interpretation.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
15,556 posts, read 7,796,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
OK, now we're getting somewhere! Since you have elected to quote Zechariah, I should point out to you that he wasn't referring to a messiah. He was referring to the return of the king. As in, King of Israel. Check out the very first verse of that book: "In the second year of Darius the king..."

Zechariah was writing from exile in Persia. The expectations of the exiled population involved a return to Israel (actually, Judea) and for their king to be reinstalled in Jerusalem. There's not a syllable anywhere in the book to suggest that Zechariah was making any sort of claim for a messiah.

But don't worry, you were only facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction with your interpretation.
You are quite correct, but that's not how prophecy works. The events may have happened or, even if they didn't pan out as the prophets hoped for, they were intended to relate to their own time.

But that doesn't prevent them from hiding little nuggets of prophecy relating to later events if you want to go panning through the gravel of the OT for Jesus - dust.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:33 AM
 
31,385 posts, read 18,204,932 times
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An interesting interview with David Klinghoffer on why Jews don't accept Jesus.

Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah--Interview with David Klinghoffer Judaism Christian Isaiah Christ - Beliefnet.com

My favorite quote:

"The Messiah will change the world. There won't be any question about whether he's come."
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:35 AM
 
31 posts, read 45,416 times
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simple, we believe there is/was Jesus
but that he is dead
and will not retun.......................................
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Old 07-08-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle Area of Wa.
62 posts, read 65,037 times
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Nice link ovcatto!
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,060 posts, read 19,752,793 times
Reputation: 10129
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
But that doesn't prevent them from hiding little nuggets of prophecy relating to later events if you want to go panning through the gravel of the OT for Jesus - dust.
Yes, indeed, in a book with as many pages as the Bible, taking things out of context allows one to "prove" just about anything.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:53 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,540,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
You are the one that believes in the Bible, not me. The bible says that Jesus rode into jerusalem (actually just up to the temple entrance, that would be) on an ass. The people went wild, matthew tells us. But you tried to argue that reason the Jews rejected jesus was because he rode on an ass.

You wrote
"The Jewish people rejected Jesus, because they failed to consider the order of the prophecy. The prophecy stated that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. They did not like that part of the prophecy, so they ignored it. They like the prophecy that speaks of the Messiah as a conquering King. So who cares about Biblical details. Especially when one's personal desires are of greater importance?"

Bible quotes are irrelevant here. They only confirm that Jesus rode on an ass for a particular reason - to present himself as a messiah.
If you ignore all the details of what I have posted, you will say I only said the Jews rejected Jesus, only because he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Yet, if you (accurately) quote all that I have stated, you would have to confirm that I also said the Jews rejected Jesus, because they did not view him as the great Conquering King.

There are numerous prophecies that speak of the coming messiah. One paints a picture of Him as a gentle man riding on a donkey, the other prophecy, shows Him as a Conquering King. Jesus fulfill the prophecy of the gentle man on a donkey. The Jews of that time wanted the Conquering King, not the gentle man on the donkey. If the Jewish leaders had really imbraced the gental man on the donkey, they never would of incourage the Romans to nail Christ to the cross.
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