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Old 07-08-2009, 10:59 PM
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Basically becuase Jeus appeared to the Jewish people. He came to earth because of all man's sins and rejected no one. If you read teh bible he specifically condemmed the jewish priest teaching time and again which may give you some idea why they jewsih church in htoisae days rejected him. Its always wise to rememeber that all mankind are sinners.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
OK, now we're getting somewhere! Since you have elected to quote Zechariah, I should point out to you that he wasn't referring to a messiah. He was referring to the return of the king. As in, King of Israel. Check out the very first verse of that book: "In the second year of Darius the king..."

Zechariah was writing from exile in Persia. The expectations of the exiled population involved a return to Israel (actually, Judea) and for their king to be reinstalled in Jerusalem. There's not a syllable anywhere in the book to suggest that Zechariah was making any sort of claim for a messiah.

But don't worry, you were only facing 180 degrees in the wrong direction with your interpretation.
Did you forget, or perhaps you were not aware. Israels true King,

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-Israel's (KING) and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

And one of the names of the promised messiah just happens to be, (MIGHTY GOD.)

My interpretation, agrees with the Scriptures.

And I might add, according to the prophecies in Zec. 9 verses 9 and 10, this King would bring salvation, he would be gentle and ride in to Jerusalem on a donkey. And he would proclaim peace to the nations, and in the end, his rule would extend to the ends of the earth.

Now historically, Jesus Christ brought salvation, He was gentle, He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, He proclaim peace to the nations. And the New Testament tells us, at the end of time, His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

Now, can you share with us what other earthly King would fulfill this prophecy?
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lindaintennessee View Post
simple, we believe there is/was Jesus
but that he is dead
and will not retun.......................................
And of course, this would be the view one would expect most Jews would have, because the Old Testament prophecy states His own people would reject Him. Yet that rejection would be regreted in the end, because Zec. 12 shows us how the Jewish people will react near the end of time when they finally see who their God is. Truly, a sad day for the Jewish people.
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
You are quite correct, but that's not how prophecy works. The events may have happened or, even if they didn't pan out as the prophets hoped for, they were intended to relate to their own time.

But that doesn't prevent them from hiding little nuggets of prophecy relating to later events if you want to go panning through the gravel of the OT for Jesus - dust.
If prophecy was to occur only in the prophets lifetime, why does Hosea 6:2 tell us that God would revive us on the third day?
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
If you ignore all the details of what I have posted, you will say I only said the Jews rejected Jesus, only because he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Yet, if you (accurately) quote all that I have stated, you would have to confirm that I also said the Jews rejected Jesus, because they did not view him as the great Conquering King.

There are numerous prophecies that speak of the coming messiah. One paints a picture of Him as a gentle man riding on a donkey, the other prophecy, shows Him as a Conquering King. Jesus fulfill the prophecy of the gentle man on a donkey. The Jews of that time wanted the Conquering King, not the gentle man on the donkey. If the Jewish leaders had really imbraced the gental man on the donkey, they never would of incourage the Romans to nail Christ to the cross.
And, if you (accurately) quote all that I have stated, you would seethat you have overlooked that I pointed out that the Gospels - in which you believe - contradict you in that they show with what wild enthusiam the sight of Jesus riding on his Ass was recieved.

You cannot argue that disappointment at the sight of Jesus looking so meek and humble was the reason for them to reject him as messiah. If there was any reason that the Jews could not accept Jesus as messiah was because he did nothing other than get crucified by the Romans - not the Jews, the Romans.

I have already explained why the malicious argument that the Jews were to blame does not add up. But if course, you ignored that if you even bothered to read it.
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
If prophecy was to occur only in the prophets lifetime, why does Hosea 6:2 tell us that God would revive us on the third day?

6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn , and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up , and we shall live in his sight.

Well, it looks to me like he is talking about problems at that time. See the previous chapter:

Hosea5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.

Like all your Tents of Judea stuff and 2 million strong Red army, it is neccessary to make it metaphorical and twist it out of context (and, as you did with Hosea, overlook the context of chapter 5) in order to make it relate to some future event.

Now, it may be that there are some prophecies that do relate to speculations about Judea's future. Stick and carrot existed in Judea 1000 bc as it did in 40 A.D and today. But the prophecies you have been putting forward as future prophecies do look pretty convicingly as though they are about the time of the prophet.

At least, convincingly to me. And it is me, and others like me, who you need to convince.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-09-2009 at 04:14 AM.. Reason: in, not on
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Old 07-09-2009, 06:40 AM
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I looked into the Melchizedek thing..

The sacred history about Melchizedek is very brief (Gen. 14:18-20). He, a Canaanite, was king of Salem (probably, later known as Jerusalem), and the priest of God Most High. After a particular battle in which Abraham was victorious, Melchizedek blessed him. In turn, Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek. What is omitted in this history about Melchizedek, as well as what little is said about him, is important in that he is set forth as a type of Christ.
Confusion on the Covenants ~ Jesus: Priest After the Order of Melchizedek ~ Bill Reeves

Worth reading the whole for an argument that Jesus as a non-levite abrogated the Law/priesthood and instituted a new covenant.

"So Melchizedek was here revealed as the priest-king of Salem, a royal priest who presided over all parties as the superior, seen as having special privilege before God, but not offering sacrifices. This idea became important for the future.
It was taken up in Psalm 110.4. The Psalm would later have Messianic connections but it firstly had in mind the Davidic kingship. We must remember that David captured Jerusalem and made it his own city. That is why the people of Jerusalem always saw themselves as separate from Israel and Judah. Thus he would have conferred on him by the people of Jerusalem the royal priesthood of Melchizedek as the successor to the previous priest-kings. This need not necessarily mean that he offered sacrifices. Indeed he introduced the Levitical priests for that for he was too good a Yahwist to go against the Law. But he may well have taken part in major religious ceremonies in an exalted position, in recognition of his royal priestly connections and status. Later Davidic kings, not so scrupulous, might have gone even further."
The Order of Melchizedek

As always, Wiki is so damn' useful

Melchizedek is mentioned twice in the Hebrew bible. The first occurs at Genesis 14:18-20, part of the larger story of Genesis 14:17-24 which tells how Abram returns from defeating king Chedorlaomer and his associates and meets with the king of Sodom, at which point (KJV translation):
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
The second is in Psalm 110:4, celebrating some victory or conquest of an unnamed king of the Davidic dynasty. The king is said to be a "priest forever" and a successor of Melchizedek, and the text is translated (KJV):
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Melchizedek in the Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13
11Q13 (11QMelch) is a fragment (that can be dated end II century or start I century BCE) of a text about Melchizedek found in Cave 11 at Qumran in Israel and which comprises part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. In this eschatological text Melchizedek is seen as a divine being and Hebrew titles as Elohim are applied to him. According to this text Melchizedek will proclaim the "Day of Atonement" and he will atone for the people who are predestined to him. He also will judge the peoples.

[edit] Melchizedek in the Second Book of Enoch
The Second Book of Enoch (also called "Slavonic Enoch") is apparently a Jewish sectarian work of the 1st century CE.[2] The last section of the work, the Exaltation of Melchizedek, tells how Melchizedek was born of a virgin, Sofonim (or Sopanima), the wife of Nir, a brother of Noah. The child came out from his mother after she had died and sat on the bed beside her corpse, already physically developed, clothed, speaking and blessing the Lord, and marked with the badge of priesthood. Forty days later, Melchizedek was taken by the archangel Gabriel (Michael in some manuscripts) to the Garden of Eden and was thus preserved from the Deluge without having to be in Noah's Ark.

Melchizedek in the New Testament
Melchizedek painted onto the altar side near the Royal Doors at Libotin wooden church, Maramures County, RomaniaMain article: Melchizedek priesthood
In the New Testament, references to Melchizedek appear only in the Epistle to the Hebrews (end I century CE). Jesus the Christ is there identified as a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek quoting from Ps. 110:4[5], and so Jesus plays the role of High Priest once and for all. Abraham's transfer of goods to Melchizedek is seen to imply that Melchizedek is superior to Abraham, in that Abraham is tithing to him. Thus, Melchizedek's (Jesus') priesthood is superior to the Aaronic priesthood, and the Temple in Jerusalem is now unnecessary.

Melchizedek in Nag Hammadi Library
A collection of early Gnostic scripts found in 1945, known as the Nag Hammadi Library, contains a tractate pertaining to Melchizedek. Here it is proposed that Melchizedek is Jesus Christ[6]. Melchizedek, as Jesus Christ, lives, preaches, dies and is resurrected, in a gnostic perspective. The Coming of the Son of God Melchizedek speaks of his return to bring peace, supported by the gods, and he is a priest-king who dispenses justice.

Psalm 110
Psalm 110 reads in full (NAB version):
(1)A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: "Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool." (2) The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: "Rule over your enemies! (3) Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you." (4) The LORD has sworn and will not waver: "Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever." (5) At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of wrath, (6) Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, (7) Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head.
The KJV version of the highlighted sentence, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek, has become traditional in English translations, but the Hebrew contains ambiguities. the New Jewish Publication Society of America Version, (1985 edition), for example, has You are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree. Another alternative keeps Melchizedek as a personal name but changes the identity of the person addressed: "You are a priest forever by my order (or 'on my account'), O Melchizedek" - here it is Melchizedek who is being addressed throughout the psalm.[
Melchizedek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, pick the bones out of that, folks. Like Solomon's girl -friend said, 'The half was not told me'. It sems pretty clear that the idea is that Jesus, being Davidic, a king and, final argument, approved by God, was a Priest whether or not approved by the Sanhedrin.

I alo had some further thoughts about throwing the silver into the temple. The priests say that it cannot go into the treasury as it was 'blood money' I doubt that was correct as the treasury (a number of offering - boxes standing in the Court of the women Just before the temple steps) has boxes for sin- offerings and such. I doubt that the Priests would be bothered. If they were, they could do what they did with other impure money - change it for Pure Temple silver (with a head of a Phoenecian god on) and use that.
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Old 07-09-2009, 09:37 AM
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
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Well, the good news IS that HE is returning for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, HE is returning with a SWORD to DIVIDE and WILL reign as KING. Better go back and read the word. Also the Jewish people WILL know their Messiah when HE returns. This is prophecy and it WILL come to pass. No worries. Many seem so hung up on the poor old Jewish people and past particulars. NO worries, Yahudah is rejoined with the rest of the Nations and become ISRAEL PERIOD. The 2 sticks will be joined as ONE. Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke of it and it WILL come to pass. I just rejoice that HIS will WILL be done, and this is good stuff. YHVH's people, ISRAEL will be HIS people once again. Amein
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:43 PM
Location: Brooklyn
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
If prophecy was to occur only in the prophets lifetime, why does Hosea 6:2 tell us that God would revive us on the third day?
Once again, as your pattern dictates, you are quoting out of context to "prove" something that was never intended. Hosea 6:1...

"Come, and let us return unto the LORD;
For He hath torn, and He will heal us,
He hath smitten, and He will bind us up."

Revive, as it appears in the following verse you chose to reference, has nothing to do with being brought back from the dead, as you infer. After you've been torn and smitten, being revived means exactly that.

You might also go back and look at Hosea 1:1 to see when he wrote. The reigns of Uzziah, Jothan, Ahaz and Hezekiah weren't exactly times of milk and honey. And it was always standard practice to advocate a 'return to the LORD' in troubled times. This is precisely what Hosea, and most of the other prophets, did.
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:34 PM
Location: Seattle Area of Wa.
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Thank you fred314x. But you do know they will come up with some other lame "out of context" verse right in the middle of a chapter, that if you read from the beginning it is clear that it is not about Jesus, or it is about something that already occured in the past, or it is about something currently going on as it is being written. They don't bother to do any research that is objective, they just read info that already agrees with their beliefs.
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