Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-19-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,454,353 times
Reputation: 188

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
According to the Bible, the Jewish people would reject their Redeemer when He would first appear, and that is why in the end of days when He would appear again, the Jewish people are predicted to be so upset. That can be found in Zechariah. chapter 12, verses 9 to 14 of the Old Testament.
That is not what Zechariah says....Again, no where does it say they will reject the messiah. It is a prophesy that has not happened, so is Jesus going to get pierced again. Because the chapter says ON THAT DAY.

Look at the Tanakh :Zech 12 verse 9. And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
11. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.
12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart.


Campbell, I know that you can think for yourself. I suggest you read the text and stop listening to the Christian Doctrine that pollutes your mind. When you use the Christian doctrine with this verse it does not make sense.

Here is why, Christians believe this is a prophesy that validates Jesus will be rejected by the Jews. Even if their are many different translations you can not remove the fact that this chapter is a prophesy. Now what remains is does Jesus who was pierced fit the description of the text. Well Christian will say yes, because john 19:36 says :These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[b] 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]
Unfortunately, John took the bible verse out of content. I say that for 2 reasons: 1 Zech 12 vs 9 "And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem." So did this happen when Jesus was pierced ? No, God did not destroy any nations on the day Jesus was pierced. 2. John states "on the one they have pierced." First of all is he talking about the Romans or the Jews. If he is talking about the Jews lets take a look at Zech 12:10
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Even though the translation is not correct. You still can see that verse 10 is about a ME and Him which is two separate beings. But again the major problem is that argument is John said "they who pierced". The Jews never pierced Jesus. John was trying to claim that this prophesy was fulfilled but if it were true than the Jews would have mourned Jesus but you know that did not happen.(verse 11 -14)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-20-2009, 01:03 AM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,956,024 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I realize that there is an interconnectedness in the history of the Christian faith and Judaism and I'm certainly no expert on the subject. From the Christian perspective the Bible clearly states that the Jews are the chosen people and Jesus himself is said to be a Jew. What seems perplexing to me is that the main religion of the Jews in the world is Judaism which of course has it's own set of beliefs and doesn't accept Jesus as the messiah. My question isn't really about Jusaism, it's about Christianity, and I'm simply wondering why the chosen people according to the Christian faith are the Jews and yet they don't even share the basic beliefs of Christians. This brings up a few questions. Christians believe that only by accepting Christ can an individual be saved. Does this mean that the overwhelming majority of Jews, God's chosen people, will not be saved? Also, doesn't it seem very strange that God's chosen people, according to Christianity, aren't even believers in the Christian faith?
According to the Old Testament prophecy when their Masiah would appear, his own people would reject Him. Isaiah 53:8 For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. Most Jews who have rejected Christ will not be saved according to the Bible. That is why in the Old Testament in Zec. chapter 12 the Jewish people in the last days are so upset when they finally see who God is.

If you read Zec. chapter 12 verse 10 to 14 you will see their reaction after seeing who their God is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 01:23 AM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,956,024 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu View Post
That is not what Zechariah says....Again, no where does it say they will reject the messiah. It is a prophesy that has not happened, so is Jesus going to get pierced again. Because the chapter says ON THAT DAY.

Look at the Tanakh :Zech 12 verse 9. And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
11. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.
12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart.


Campbell, I know that you can think for yourself. I suggest you read the text and stop listening to the Christian Doctrine that pollutes your mind. When you use the Christian doctrine with this verse it does not make sense.

Here is why, Christians believe this is a prophesy that validates Jesus will be rejected by the Jews. Even if their are many different translations you can not remove the fact that this chapter is a prophesy. Now what remains is does Jesus who was pierced fit the description of the text. Well Christian will say yes, because john 19:36 says :These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]
[b]Unfortunately, John took the bible verse out of content. I say that for 2 reasons: 1 Zech 12 vs 9 "And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem." So did this happen when Jesus was pierced ? No, God did not destroy any nations on the day Jesus was pierced. 2. John states "on the one they have pierced." First of all is he talking about the Romans or the Jews. If he is talking about the Jews lets take a look at Zech 12:10
10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Even though the translation is not correct. You still can see that verse 10 is about a ME and Him which is two separate beings. But again the major problem is that argument is John said "they who pierced". The Jews never pierced Jesus. John was trying to claim that this prophesy was fulfilled but if it were true than the Jews would have mourned Jesus but you know that did not happen.(verse 11 -14)
The nation of Israel did not morn Jesus in the past, they would do this in the future when they saw who He really was. And God would destroy all the nations that came at Jerusalem in the future, not the past. And this is obvious if you understand what is being stated in verse 7. (This historical event occured in 1948), and not during the time of the Romans. Jesus being pierced happened in the past, Jesus defending Jerusalem happens in the future. And the Jewish people in these last days would not have the ability to pierce God, so that is out of the question. And verse 9 states that (in) that day, not (on) that day. And verse 10 states they shall look upon me (WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED,) Another words, that act already took place. And we know Jesus was pierced 2,000 years ago.

Last edited by Campbell34; 01-20-2009 at 01:55 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 03:10 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 5,389,192 times
Reputation: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
This website was interesting. Speaks of what Jews were expecting in a Messiah, but were gravely disappointed in Jesus. Since then they have sort of been in limbo so to speak and have created other numerous later writtings to cancel out Messiah prophecies of the Torah which in turn changed the nature of their original Jewish religion.

It's sort of a Jew FAQ site: Judaism 101: Moshiach: The Messiah

On another spooky note!!! Did you really want to open up another EastGate debate thread ???
What did I say ???

Told you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,454,353 times
Reputation: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The nation of Israel did not morn Jesus in the past, they would do this in the future when they saw who He really was. And God would destroy all the nations that came at Jerusalem in the future, not the past. And this is obvious if you understand what is being stated in verse 7. (This historical event occured in 1948), and not during the time of the Romans. Jesus being pierced happened in the past, Jesus defending Jerusalem happens in the future. And the Jewish people in these last days would not have the ability to pierce God, so that is out of the question. And verse 9 states that (in) that day, not (on) that day. And verse 10 states they shall look upon me (WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED,) Another words, that act already took place. And we know Jesus was pierced 2,000 years ago.
Well if you read verse Zech 12 is about an event that will happen in 1 day. that piercing happens on that day. Sorry thanks for playing...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,049 posts, read 34,531,547 times
Reputation: 10610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
According to the Old Testament prophecy when their Masiah would appear, his own people would reject Him. Isaiah 53:8 For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. Most Jews who have rejected Christ will not be saved according to the Bible. That is why in the Old Testament in Zec. chapter 12 the Jewish people in the last days are so upset when they finally see who God is.
I think part of the problem here is that Judaism does not recognize that the Messiah has come. You're projecting your own beliefs on Judaism, which is your prerogative, I suppose. But you shouldn't be surprised if someone who might happen to be Jewish sees things somewhat differently.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,328 posts, read 61,146,748 times
Reputation: 30255
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu View Post
Well if you read verse Zech 12 is about an event that will happen in 1 day. that piercing happens on that day. Sorry thanks for playing...
Says who?

No other section of rambling prophecy happened in one day, so why this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2009, 09:52 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,956,024 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu View Post
Well if you read verse Zech 12 is about an event that will happen in 1 day. that piercing happens on that day. Sorry thanks for playing...
Zechariah 12:8 states that (IN THAT DAY) shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:9 states And it shall come to pass (IN THAT DAY), that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And in keeping with (IN THAT DAY) verse 10 states that the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall look upon me (WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED)

In no way, does the context of the verse suggest that God was pierced (ON THAT DAY). What it does suggest, is an event that had already occured at a latter time. And that is why it reads (WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED).

The verse does not read (IN THAt DAY) they pierced me.
The only thing stated in the verse in question is stating that (IN THAT DAY) the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall look upon me (WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2009, 07:20 PM
 
30 posts, read 22,226 times
Reputation: 27
Default This is for Oberon 1

I didn't want to quote the whole thing here and waste space, so I quoted you like this.

"allowed' (the Jews to rule themselves)


- Yes, initially this is exactly what happened. When trying to set the extreme dates for the Hasmonean Kingdom (164 BC to 64 BC), at the beginning, the Seleucids acquiesced only to allowing the Temple elite to control parts of Jerusalem. The control of the entirety of what is now Palestine was a gradual process of wresting more control from the Seleucids and was not really completed until around 150 BC. It all came crashing down for good with Pompey entering Jerusalem in 64 BC.

That's a fantastic theory! Are you serious, or just in a joyful mood?
Quote:
The whole purpose of Christianity was to turn Romans into second-class Jews and then rule them through religion.
That's the most hillarious thing I ever heard!


No the most hilarious thing is that people, claiming to be the best educated ever, still accept - as true, a set of preposterous lies that people 2500 years ago could see through and thought were hilarious. The most hilarious thing is that supposedly educated people seem surprised that all religions are about manipulating the minds of their converts.

It is also hilarious that so much effort is still spent in legitimizing lies designed initially to sway 5th century BC peasants into coughing up money.

It is also hilarious, and very dangerous, that 10s of millions of American Christian fundamentalists see it as their sacred duty to support Israel, come hell or highwater (literally), because Jews are the ‘chosen people’ and Christians are ‘second class Jews’. ACTS and the Epistles of Paul are ALL ABOUT turning Romans and Greeks into Jews. Jews, themselves, don’t accept these people and thus these converts....(wait for it)... are 2nd CLASS JEWS!

By the way, the Emperor Claudius banished the entire Jewish population of Rome (estimated to be about 40,000 at the time) in the year 58 AD. Bible scholars use that date to lock in when Paul began his preaching because he says he meets Jews from Rome when he first starts out (59 BC). Claudius is thought of very highly among historians as a decent, efficient and fair Roman emperor. Why, then, do you think he did that? Why were the Jews - and no one else - cited and banished from of Rome?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,049 posts, read 34,531,547 times
Reputation: 10610
Quote:
Originally Posted by cythara View Post
Why were the Jews - and no one else - cited and banished from of Rome?
The point being...?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top