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Old 01-25-2009, 03:10 PM
 
31 posts, read 3,267 times
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Default Quo Claudius?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
The point being...?
That those here who shoot their mouths off 'pooh-poohing history' are usually abysmally ignorant of that which they make pretense at criticizing. They have no knowledge; no intelligence - and so they make tangential pseudo-intellectual reposts. If they are so smart and urbane, let them tell me why Claudius banished the Jews from Rome.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:12 AM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,322 posts, read 2,908,944 times
Reputation: 3045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Speaking as one of those Jewish people, I can tell the truth even if it is to my own hurt.

Jesus is the Messiah. He came and went. Our forefathers missed him, but not all. There were many people who believed in Jesus. Some of these people were the disciples who took the good news of Emanuel to the world.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. It was by faith that Abraham became the father to the those who believe. Not just to have his blood descendants to be blessed and called the children of God, but that he became the father to all who believe in God. He is the father of faith.

It is not my religious beliefs that I am imposing, rather I am speaking the truth. May the Lord God save Israel. May there be peace in Israel and may Jacob come to the realization that Jesus is the Messiah.
I feel sorry for your family if you are Jewish and believe the lies about jesus being the mosiach.

The facts are, Jews wrote the rules on the mosiach, and jesus didn't fulfill ANY of them, he is not OUR messiah.

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Old 01-26-2009, 09:03 AM
 
21,849 posts, read 9,719,116 times
Reputation: 3702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
The facts are, Jews wrote the rules on the mosiach, and jesus didn't fulfill ANY of them, he is not OUR messiah.

That's the problem . . . it was the Jews who wrote the rules you are using . . . not God . . . the prophets recorded God's specifications. For the messianic prophesies to be fulfilled, the right human and the right times had to exist synchronously. A human with the very extraordinary consciousness necessary to the task had to emerge during a time when the situation demanded the fulfillment of the messianic hope. This was in fact the case during the time of Jesus. Think about it. Isn't it just a little bit silly to proclaim that Jesus was just a man who:

1.)learned that there was such a thing as a messiah;
2.) learned that a messiah was desperately needed;
3.) learned what a messiah was supposed to do;
4.) possessed the abilities to do what was necessary;
5.) applied for the job;
6.) was actually accepted;
7.) actually succeeded in accomplishing his mission;
8.) and for almost two thousand years has been fulfilling the very detailed specifications set out in prophecy?

Come on, now!

It should be sufficient that a man fulfilling the prophesies actually emerged, and that through the centuries to this day the detailed prophesies about him are still being fulfilled.

From Matthew 21:42

. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone!]

From Isais 52:15

. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld.
[The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophesy about Christ.]

From Isais 55:4

. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophesy.]

From Isais 55:5

. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophesy.]

From Isais 60:1

. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]

From Matthew 24:14

. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:26 AM
 
995 posts, read 777,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That's the problem . . . it was the Jews who wrote the rules you are using . . . not God . . . the prophets recorded God's specifications. For the messianic prophesies to be fulfilled, the right human and the right times had to exist synchronously.
It should be sufficient that a man fulfilling the prophesies actually emerged, and that through the centuries to this day the detailed prophesies about him are still being fulfilled. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
Even Moses fortells the coming of THE prophet :

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
Deuteronomy 18:18]
There are many verses in the Old Testament that predict the coming of Jesus (pbuh). This one, however, is not one of them.
THIS prophet cannot be a jew. Jesus was a jew. Muhammad was not and the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew. We are told that in Deuteronomy:

"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses." Deuteronomy 34:10
This awaited prophet, however, must be "LIKE unto thee (Moses)." So he will come from OUTSIDE of Israel

Is from the brethren of the Jews

If this prophet can not be a Jew, then what is left? In this verse, God speaks to Moses (pbuh) about the Jews as a racial entity. The awaited prophet is claimed to not be "from the Jews" or "from among themselves" but rather "from among their (the Jew's) brethren." Who are the brethren of the Jewish nation? The Jews are the sons Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Isaac's older brother was Ishmael, the father of the Arabs. Thus, the brethren of the Jewish nation is the nation of the Arabs. This statement is further reinforced by the following definition of "Brethren" in the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible:
"personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites."
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:40 PM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,322 posts, read 2,908,944 times
Reputation: 3045
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That's the problem . . . it was the Jews who wrote the rules you are using . . . not God . . . the prophets recorded God's specifications. For the messianic prophesies to be fulfilled, the right human and the right times had to exist synchronously. A human with the very extraordinary consciousness necessary to the task had to emerge during a time when the situation demanded the fulfillment of the messianic hope. This was in fact the case during the time of Jesus. Think about it. Isn't it just a little bit silly to proclaim that Jesus was just a man who:

1.)learned that there was such a thing as a messiah;
2.) learned that a messiah was desperately needed;
3.) learned what a messiah was supposed to do;
4.) possessed the abilities to do what was necessary;
5.) applied for the job;
6.) was actually accepted;
7.) actually succeeded in accomplishing his mission;
8.) and for almost two thousand years has been fulfilling the very detailed specifications set out in prophecy?
I'm sorry, can you give me NON Christian validation?

It's quite ignorant IMO, to tell someone who is Jewish that we as Jews are reading our OWN scriptures incorrectly.

Here's the CORRECT JEWISH prophecies, which he fulfilled none of them.

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)


He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.


He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)


The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!


He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)


Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?


He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)


At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!


He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)


Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?


He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)


The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.


He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)


there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.


All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.


If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.




Certainly NOT Jesus, on the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

That is why to US, he is NOT the mosiach, and never has been.

Sorry, but IMO, you want the truth, you kinda have to go to the horse's mouth, and when it comes to matters of Judaism, who better than to ask but us Jews?
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
21,320 posts, read 26,134,564 times
Reputation: 8429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
I'm sorry, can you give me NON Christian validation?

It's quite ignorant IMO, to tell someone who is Jewish that we as Jews are reading our OWN scriptures incorrectly.

Here's the CORRECT JEWISH prophecies, which he fulfilled none of them. .......

... He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold. ...
Good post

So many polytheist 'Christians' try so hard to tell Jews what the Jewish faith is all about.

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Old 01-26-2009, 11:01 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,097,026 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
I'm sorry, can you give me NON Christian validation?

It's quite ignorant IMO, to tell someone who is Jewish that we as Jews are reading our OWN scriptures incorrectly.

Here's the CORRECT JEWISH prophecies, which he fulfilled none of them.

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)


He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.


He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)


The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!


He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)


Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?


He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)


At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!


He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)


Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?


He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)


The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.


He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)


there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.


All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.


If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.




Certainly NOT Jesus, on the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

That is why to US, he is NOT the mosiach, and never has been.

Sorry, but IMO, you want the truth, you kinda have to go to the horse's mouth, and when it comes to matters of Judaism, who better than to ask but us Jews?
Based on what you have stated, I can see why the God of the Old Testament tells us the Jewish people polluted His name where ever they wandered. And the Old Testament God states that when He allows the Jewish people to return to the land of Israel, it will not be for their sakes. And the God of the Old Testement speaks of the Jewish people as an unclean woman. It's obvious, that the God of the Old Testement has a very low opinion of the Jewish people. You will find this all spoken of in the Book of Ezekiel, chapters 36,37,38,and 39. And I might add, he is speaking of the Jewish people in our day. For he is speaking of the Jewish people who would return to the land of Israel in the latter days.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:31 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,432,263 times
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The Jew were troubled in how Jesus came into the world. They exspected him to come riding on cloud of thunder and angels around him. They did not exspect him to come as humble as he did. Then when he came he questioned their faith, and exposed their sin and shock their government. They had a problem with Jesus and thought he was going to do everything the way that they were use too. But he came and did new things that they were not use to and they did not like it. So, they rejected him, not knowing that they were rejecting the God that created them, because they did not recognize him. John 1: 10-12, basically say he was in the world, but the world did not recognize him, and he came to that of his own, but his own did not receice him.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:43 AM
 
21,849 posts, read 9,719,116 times
Reputation: 3702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife View Post
I'm sorry, can you give me NON Christian validation?

It's quite ignorant IMO, to tell someone who is Jewish that we as Jews are reading our OWN scriptures incorrectly.

Here's the CORRECT JEWISH prophecies, which he fulfilled none of them.
I guess you just didn't read the prophesies from Isaiah that I cited. I certainly wouldn't presume to tell you what you are reading correctly or incorrectly. I simply pointed out the very compelling millennia-long prophesies that HAVE been fulfilled by Jesus. Prophesies over such a significant time period cannot simply be brushed aside whatever the Jewish people wish to believe or not believe. You are free to maintain your "rules" for the messiah . . . the rest of us will simply acknowledge the indisputable evidence of centuries of fulfillment of ancient prophesies.

It has long been acknowledged that the Jews were looking for a worldly king who would free them from the Roman rule and build their own state. That is the reason they rejected the "cornerstone" that was Jesus. If they had been correctly interpreting and expecting a spiritual king they would not have rejected him and the prophesy would not have been fulfilled. Clearly you are still carnally interpreting and expecting ALL things to occur at the same time instead of over millennia . . . as they have done in Jesus' case.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:57 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,432,263 times
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The Jews people rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do--destroy evil and all their enemies, in this case the Romans, and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion, and so many other things that Jesus done, in their eye that offended them. Their are Jewish people that refuse to believe that the messiah has come.
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